Schogun | 29 Jan 2016 9:29 a.m. PST |
For Germans, online sources say 251/C halftrack or SdKfz 10 for smaller guns = 37mm PaK 36 and 50mm Pak 38? SdKfz 7 for the 88mm. Confirm? Others? What about the British? What towed the 2pdr and 6pdf ATG's? And Italian 47mm ATG? Thanks |
Rich Bliss | 29 Jan 2016 9:33 a.m. PST |
The 251s are pretty rare in NA. The 7 for the 88's in correct and the 10 towed 105 howitzers. I would expect most ATGs towed by trucks like the Krupp Protze. The Italians had a wheeled Prime Mover for the 47mm ATG but trucks would be used. And by trucks Immean anything available, including captured ones. |
Vigilant | 29 Jan 2016 9:34 a.m. PST |
My Pak 38 is towed by a captured bren carrier. |
GypsyComet | 29 Jan 2016 10:02 a.m. PST |
Standard Wikipedia disclaimer applies. link |
Jemima Fawr | 29 Jan 2016 10:11 a.m. PST |
The Sdkfz 11, rather than the Sdkfz 10, was more typical for towing the 10.5cm howitzer. It would also be used for medium AT guns such as 5cm PaK 38 and 7.5cm PaK 40, as well as the heavier light flak such as 3.7cm FlaK 43. The Sdkfz 10 was typically used for towing light guns such as 3.7cm PaK 36, 7.5cm leIG 18 and 2cm FlaK 30. |
Starfury Rider | 29 Jan 2016 10:15 a.m. PST |
British 2-prs were portee in the desert on 3-tonners, rather than being towed, likewise the 6-pr. Gary |
MajorB | 29 Jan 2016 10:33 a.m. PST |
British 2-prs were portee in the desert on 3-tonners, rather than being towed, likewise the 6-pr. Always? |
Who asked this joker | 29 Jan 2016 11:05 a.m. PST |
British: 2lbr, 6lbr and in Tunesia, 17lbr. German: Pak 36, Pak 38, Pak 40 and Flak 36. Italian: 47mm American: 37mm and 57mm |
wargamer6 | 29 Jan 2016 11:13 a.m. PST |
I have not seen the 2lb carried on a 3 ton truck myself , does anyone have photos of this being done. Typically the 2lb was carried Porte by a 30cwt Cheverolet. The 6lb gun was also carried porte by a Cheverolet 30cwt and a couple of 3 tonners were also used , a Bedford QLT and an Austin K5. The Germans used the Sdkfz 10 for the Pak 36 and the Pak 38 But I have also seen the Sdkfz 11 used to tow a Pak 38 as well. I was doubtful about a 251C being used for this purpose but did come across one photo of a DAK 251B towing a Pak 38. Does anyone have any photo evidence that the 2lb gun was ever carried by a Morris 15cwt, I have seen a 15cwt Morris carrying Bofors anti tank gun but never a 2lb gun. |
Starfury Rider | 29 Jan 2016 11:48 a.m. PST |
Well doubting myself that I'd confused 3-ton and 30-cwt I've gone back through my Middle East WEs and the following all show 'Lorries, 3-ton, portee' for carriage of 2-pr guns - Field Regt, RA, ME (VI/401/1) – 7th Feb 1942 HQ & Protective Pl of a Motor Bde (VI/450/1) – 16th Mar 1942 HQ & Defence Tp, Armd Div, ME (VI/558/2) – 15th Aug 1942 Motor Bn, ME (VI/559/1)- 15th Aug 1942 Motor Bn, ME (VI/559/2) – 16th Oct 1942 (notes guns could be 2-pr or 6-pr) Machine Gun Bn, ME (VI/579/1) – 22nd Jun 1942 Inf Bn, ME (VI/587/1) – 4th Apr 1942 Inf Bn, ME (VI/587/2) – 30th Nov 1942 Atk Regt, RA, ME (VI/589/1) – 21st Aug 1942 Fd Regt, RA (ME scales of Tpt) (VI/590/1) – 27th May 1942 Lorried Inf Bn, ME (VI/959/1) – 20th Sep 1942 The following show a 30-cwt vehicle - An Inf Atk Coy (British & Indian), ME (VI/405/1) – 29th Nov 1941 On that basis I'll stick with 3-tonners as the portee, and yes, near enough always. Gary |
shaun from s and s models | 29 Jan 2016 11:54 a.m. PST |
in Tunisia the 17pdr was towed by the morris or cmp quad and sometimes a half track, m5 or m9 |
wargamer6 | 29 Jan 2016 12:36 p.m. PST |
The 2lb carriage was found to be too fragile for towed use in the desert very early on so I suppose the 2lb gun could have been carried on the back of a three tonner as per your list. It is strange that there are no pictures of this though. I have ruled out the 2lb being porteed by a 15cwt Morris as per Wikipedia as it wouldn't have been able to fit onto the truckbed as the carriage was too wide for it. I suspect that someone has mistaken the angular bonnet of a 30cwt Cheverolet for a 15cwt Morris. |
Starfury Rider | 29 Jan 2016 12:50 p.m. PST |
I've had a quick image search and a few shots come up, you have to scroll down a ways on some of the pages – link link link link Now I'm not a 'vehicle guy' and it's no use pretending otherwise; are these few photos of 30-cwt or 3-ton lorries? Gary |
Schogun | 29 Jan 2016 1:15 p.m. PST |
From this site: link Two-pounder (40mm) anti-tank gun portee: A 2 pounder anti-tank gun mounted on a Morris 15 cwt truck, Chevrolet WA or WB 30cwt truck (Ian Allen publishing), CMP Ford F30 or Chevrolet C30 trucks. Six-pounder (57mm) anti-tank gun portee: A 6 pounder anti-tank gun mounted on a Bedford QLT 3-ton lorry or Austin K5 3ton lorry both of which had a special frame only body carrying the gun, crew, ammunition and the rarely used side shields. A F60 or C60 with cut down number 13 cab was similarly used. 20mm anti-aircraft portee: A 20 mm anti-aircraft gun mounted on a Morris 15 cwt truck Bofors 37mm anti-tank portee mounted on Bedford MW or Morris CS8 15cwt used by 106RHA during Operation Compass and was present at Beda Fomm. |
Schogun | 29 Jan 2016 1:16 p.m. PST |
Also discussed back in Dec 2011: TMP link |
Who asked this joker | 29 Jan 2016 3:12 p.m. PST |
I apologize for not answering the Q well. I misread the title. Bedfords and Morris were used by the British. British did use Portees that were intended as transports but often they would not unload the weapons and fired them from the beds during battle. Germans used the SDKFZ 7s as well as their trucks. Also the Kettenkrad was used I believe at least for lighter weapons. American would have been the Jeep or the 3/4 ton truck AFAIK. Really, the answer is whatever was available for the most part. |
shaun from s and s models | 30 Jan 2016 3:15 a.m. PST |
the truck carrying the 2pdr in the first link is a Bedford mw imho, the second link 2 pdr portee is a cmp 30cwt or 3 tonner 158in w/base the 3rd one is also a cmp 30cwt or 3 tonner 134in w/base the 4th is also a cmp 30cwt or 3 tonner 134 in w/base you cannot tell easily from a 30cwt or 3 tonner as they look almost exactly the same. this is what I think |
wargamer6 | 30 Jan 2016 5:38 a.m. PST |
The terms 30cwt and 3 tonner are probably interchangeable when talking about the Porte models of this truck , as Shaun says there isn't much difference in appearance between the 3 ton and 30cwt versions , the tyres are the same diameter but the 3 tonners tyres were 4 inches wider. I picked this quote up on a CMP preservation site which seems to support the 3 ton theory "The Chevrolet 2-Pounder Portees were based very largely on the Chevrolet Gun Tractor chassis; very largely! They were officially rated at 30-cwt, but we now know via MLU that the C-GT and its Ford brother were 3-tonners in military rating". |
bsrlee | 30 Jan 2016 6:41 a.m. PST |
20cwt = 1 UK Ton = 2240lbs. 1 US ton = 2000lbs. |
Starfury Rider | 30 Jan 2016 7:28 a.m. PST |
Ah, that might explain it. WEs only give the weight classification of trucks and lorries, and not the make and model. I've delved back a little further and the Atk Regt for Home Forces (WE (III/128/1) of 25th Aug 1941 does specify "Lorries, 30-cwt, 4-wheeled, Atk portee" for each 2-pr sub-section. I don't know if they issued any amendments but the superseding II/182/1 from 23rd Nov 1942 specified 3-ton portees for the 6-pr guns. Gary |
Leadgend | 01 Feb 2016 8:59 p.m. PST |
IIRC in the desert 2pdrs were originally towed by 15cwt trucks in RA AT regiments but porteed using 30cwt or 3 ton trucks in RHA AT Regiments. Pretty soon they went to porteeing all the guns though. |