Mjr Stalwart | 28 Jan 2016 4:30 p.m. PST |
Hello all, I'm a colonial gamer and I also have an interest in the 1982 Falkland Islands War for years. So I thought "what if the conflict had occurred a century earlier? How would that affect the campaign and what kind of units may have been involved?" Easy right? I have the prerequisite number of pith helmeted Brits and I thought it would be a good excuse to pick up some of Old Glory's Spanish-American War Spanish troops as well. When I got to thinking about it, however, its just didn't "feel" right to recreate the battle(s) with troops that are circa 1900. So as with most of my projects its gotten more complicated. I'm purchasing new 1882 (Zulu Wars) British troops and I'm considering using ACW Union troops for my Argentinians. At present I'm working on a scenario for the final assault on the mountains around Port Stanley. The TO&E for the British needed the most reworking. With no elite formations such as paratroops or commandos I've decided to use regular British line regiments. Some Ghurkas (which were involved in the 1982 war) and some Indian units are also in the list for variety. The Argentines were a little more straight forward. A lot of their 1982 units were full of conscripts and were regular army units, although there were some Marine units involved as well which I assume were of a relatively higher moral and level of training. The 1882 lists therefore is pretty much the same. There is also the issue of "heavy weapon" and artillery support for both sides. No Exocets of course but the Argentines are noted to have had some 155mm guns located around the Port Stanley area. I'm also considering giving the Brits some naval support in the form of a protected cruiser and possibly even include some naval landings. The defenders in 1982 certainly expected just such a maneuver to take place and were positioned to defend against it. Some Indian mountain gun teams may also be included in the British OoB for the land assault but I'm not so sure about MG's. So I'd like to hear some constructive thoughts on how to proceed with this scenario. I'm using TSATF rules and though I'm planning to model the terrain around Port Stanley as accurately as possible with regards to the relative position of the various mountains and ridges to the town, the ground scale will be significantly foreshortened. I'd like to have room for a fairly large model of the British cruiser but it will be mostly a place holder. Lastly if anyone has any suggestions for uniform info on the Argentine army of this period I'd appreciate it. I've gotten Osprey's "Armies of the War of the Triple Alliance 1864-70" and have found a Spanish website that sells prepainted 54mm toy soldiers for the 1860's Argentine army. I was wondering if there were any other useful references. Thanks The Major |
GarrisonMiniatures | 28 Jan 2016 4:45 p.m. PST |
You could use the Guards and Rifles as Elite British of course. |
dBerczerk | 28 Jan 2016 4:58 p.m. PST |
Certainly sounds like a fun project. In 1982, it was the Argentine Air Force that nearly decided the issue in Argentina's favor. Their pilots pressed home their attacks on the islands from bases on the mainland with great bravery and skill. In your 1882 scenario, you may need to compensate for the lack of this near-decisive factor. Perhaps the Argentine Army has stationed a balloon unit on the island which gives them superior artillery fire control. This could be crucial to scenario balance, particularly if you give the British landing forces naval support from the Royal Navy. Conversely, a unit of Argentine cavalry stationed inland might give the Argentine player(s) a highly-mobile reserve to counter British flexibility in selecting their landing sites. Best of luck with your project. Quite intriguing! |
Prince Rupert of the Rhine | 28 Jan 2016 5:11 p.m. PST |
My thoughts are an operation like that in 1882 would be mostly Royal navy and Marines. I would suggest a naval brigade complete with Royal Marine light infantry. I would have thought it was a bit far to be shipping the Indian army perhaps a battalion from the West India regiment? link |
Yellow Admiral | 29 Jan 2016 8:55 a.m. PST |
Just like the 1982 war, I expect the conflict would only last a couple rounds, because the only thing there to fight over is national honor. The naval contest would be very different.
There wasn't much of an Argentine Navy at the time, but they did have two ironclad monitors, Los Andes and El Plata, both built in Britain and armed with Armstrong weapons. I'd expect one of them to accompany the fleet of wooden steam ships. They had a range of 1400 miles when full of coal, enough to get to the Falklands from Buenos Aires, but not home again, so would need a base in the Falklands to operate from. A wise Argentinian military commander would also want a base or two on the Patagonian coast only 300-500 miles away, to use for staging and resupply and as a refuge in an emergency. The Royal Navy would be operating without any nearby bases at all, so getting forced off the islands in a surprise attack would seem decisive. However, the islands were (still are!) very empty, so it would be pretty easy to sneak a landing in force onto an unpatrolled coast or islet and regain a toehold if the British returned in force. The campaign narrative would probably be one of alternating overwhelming surprise attacks until one side wore out. The Argentines would attack first and probably just take over the more-or-less undefended islands. The Royal Navy would respond with whatever kind of fleet they could organize quickly, probably carrying naval landing forces, hopefully a contingent of Marines, and perhaps bolstered by some colonial forces from wherever the fleet was put together (e.g. the West Indies). It would probably take a month to arrive. As the campaign writer you should make this force just a little bit too small for its mission so you get a good game and either side could win. You could drag this out for another round of reinforcements by both sides, but a third round of reinforcements for an island with nothing but rocks, birds and sheep is stretching credulity. - Ix |
mashrewba | 29 Jan 2016 10:15 a.m. PST |
1882 -I except we'd just go and bombard Buenos Aires. |
Yellow Admiral | 29 Jan 2016 11:09 a.m. PST |
This is actually a fun idea. 1882 is impeccable timing for this make believe conflict. The British Empire was very busy with the Urabi uprising in Egypt, and Chile, Peru and Bolivia were embroiled in the War of the Pacific. South America was a haven for European malcontents and adventurers, so there should be some real characters to throw in on the Argentinian side. The potential naval scenarios in a Falklands war look fun. The Peru/Chile naval battles in the War of the Pacific and the 1882 naval bombardment of Alexandria provide plenty of great examples for scenario generation. 1882 is smack in the middle of the transitional era of ship design, armor layout and weapon designs. An Argentinian ironclad (or two!) on station would have been a serious problem for the kinds of unarmored and lightly armored ships the Royal Navy would have available for a Falklands mission. - Ix |
Mjr Stalwart | 29 Jan 2016 10:03 p.m. PST |
Thanks you all. These are some really interesting ideas. dBerczerk: I think the idea of a spotter balloon would be and unique twist. I'm sure that nearly 20 years after the war of northern aggression there'd by plenty of surplus military equipment that the U.S. might be happy to sell off. I've purchased some 6" Creusot "Long Tome" artillery pieces from the Virtual Armchair General and a spotter balloon would make them much more effective. Prince Rupert/Yellow Admiral: You're probably right. To make it a little more believable I'll probably decrease the number of regular British infantry units and/or certainly include more naval brigade. For the assault on Port Stanley the operational deployments might need some reworking. I doubt that the Brits would find it necessary or preferable to land in San Carlos bay and march all the way across the island. My initial point of view for this project was just to recreate the battle for Stanley itself. You've given me some food for thought though. I'm still not sure I'll have the time or resources to include a naval campaign but I can certainly include in an abstract manner at the very least. I had originally intended, Yellow Admiral, to model a 28mm version of the El Plata to defend the Port Stanley harbor and also to provide a deterrent to keep the British from landing directly into Stanley. Since I'm planning to wargame the battle on a 10' X 6' tablet I'm sure there'll be room. And the ship will be more of a place holder than an actual "to scale" model. I'm not sure if anyone manufactures models for the British West Indies troops in 28mm. Does anyone know? I'm sure I could convert some ACW Zouaves without too much trouble. |
Prince Rupert of the Rhine | 30 Jan 2016 4:46 a.m. PST |
Castaway arts has some West India troops in there Ashanti wars range link Not the best minis IMO but they might look better with paint. Having said that West India (tbf all troops)troops in the south Atlantic are probably going to be wearing great coats, wooly hats and gloves no doubt the Falklands will be a bit of a shock after garrison duty in the Caribbean :) It's one of those rule of cool vs realism things much more fun to have colourful parade ground uniforms vs the more dour reality of everyone in a grey greatcoat. |
Yellow Admiral | 31 Jan 2016 4:56 p.m. PST |
If you're just going to do the one battle, then forget the naval stuff and build the ironclad as a decoration, like you already suggested. (If you scratch build the El Plata, you could make it a dice tower or dice rolling tray or something. That would be a really cool prop.) If you write a creative enough storyline you can make a lot of plausible scenarios out of this war. Landings, holding actions, raids, rescues, "capture the farmstead", whatever, let your imagination go wild. Most of these can be done in the Falklands countryside, which looks a lot like the isles around Scotland (the climate is very much like the Hebrides), so you can re-use your terrain for scenarios in the British Isles later. Just be sure to remove the penguins before you set the Highlanders or Vikings marching across the landscape… Some examples of what I was thinking for a campaign: Before campaign assumptions: - Argentine forces capture Falklands in a surprise invasion.
- UK scrapes together a totally insufficient West Indies colonial force and a few cruisers to dispatch to Falklands, while starting to gather the "main effort" in England for later.
- Bureaucratic snafus, internal politics, and pressing matters in more important colonies delay the arrival of the "big" force by months, causing a relatively even fight between numerous Argentine forces and overmatched-but-tenacious British forces.
Scenario suggestions:
- The Landing. British Army lands on Falklands, small Argentine outpost must try to do as much damage as possible and get messengers off table before inevitably losing the fight.
- Defend the camp. British Army camp attacked by Argentine forces. Classic TSATF scenario, but the "natives" have rifled long arms.
- Small battle over a farm. The British would be fighting a bunch of these to liberate the British citizens and also get sheep, crops and fresh water as supplies, and the Argentines might be doing the same to guarantee supplies for the army in Port Stanley, so you could fight several variations on this one with small forces on each side.
- The column must get through!Inspired by Prince Rupert above. The West Indies garrison troops are freezing to death without sufficient clothing, so cold-weather gear finally arrives from England weeks late, but the British supply column carrying it from landing zone up to army encampment is intercepted by Argentine raiding forces. Another classic TSATF scenario.
- Take the hill! There are hills around Port Stanley that are very useful as observation posts, artillery positions and sniper outposts. You can fight to capture them, destroy them, or just clear them out, multiple times.
I'm a naval gamer first, so naturally I'm always interested in combined operations that include some purely naval battles in 1/600 or 1/1200 scale as a part of a campaign of some sort, to be fought with something like "Sail & Steam Navies" or "Iron & Fire":
- British cruisers and gunboats try to sink/destroy/capture Argentine naval forces in Port Stanley. Insufficient force to succeed, can't sink Argentine ironclad, but must try to do maximum damage and escape without losses. Extra points for destroying Argentine land batteries. This could be repeated if the Royal Navy player thought it was worth trying again.
- Sink the supply ships! Cruiser or gunboat on patrol intercepts supply ship(s) and possibly their armed escort(s) delivering supplies to one side or the other garrison. Lots of variation possible while the two sides have rough parity in forces.
- The Royal Navy Arrives! The British naval forces get a bunch of big, well-armed, armored ships and move in to wipe out the Argentine naval forces guarding Port Stanley. Like the battle for Mobile Bay, but with 1880s weapons, nearly all of British design. To "even" the fight, tell the British player his big force must depart to bombard Buenos Aires soon, so he only gets one shot to wipe out the naval defenses of Port Stanley. Give the British huge demerits for lost or damaged ships, the Argentines none, to encourage a suicidal Argentine defense and allow an Argentine strategic victory even in a tactical defeat.
You're right, adding a naval dimension takes a lot of extra resources. That's a good project to hand off to a friendly naval gamer who is enthusiastic about gaming the war with you. If you lived near the SF Bay Area, I might volunteer. :-) - Ix |
John the OFM | 31 Jan 2016 5:19 p.m. PST |
Don't forget Flashman. Somehow I am sure he would have been involved. Somehow. |
Mjr Stalwart | 03 Feb 2016 9:01 p.m. PST |
John WOW! Thanks. This is the first time that I've heard about this character. I'll have to add his adventures to my reading list. I've been looking for a some such personage to add a consistent narrative and some sort of link between my different colonial games. Sir Harry Paget Flashman VC KCB KCIE just might be that person. Yellow Admiral I'm definitely set on starting with the assault on Port Stanley, but you've really given me some food for thought. "The column must get through" looks like a great excuse to me to buy some of 4ground's general purpose wagon. I know it's not the British military General Service Wagon but it'll do in a pinch. If anybody knows of a manufacturer that makes a 28mm General Service Wagon I'm all ears. dBerczerk I'm thinking of adding some Random Events into the scenario – bad weather delays British amphibious landing; assaulting troops get lost in the fog; friendly fire (both sides), etc. If anyone has any other ideas I'm happy to hear them. This might help even the odds a bit. Thanks The Major |
John the Greater | 04 Feb 2016 8:27 a.m. PST |
For Argentine uniforms and equipment look up the "Conquest of the Desert" campaign that ended in 1884. Here is an example:
Chilean figures from the War of the pacific would work well. |
Mjr Stalwart | 04 Feb 2016 9:58 a.m. PST |
John the Greater Thanks for the info. I was actually planning to use Old Glory's ACW miniatures. They're inexpensive (I've got the Army 40% discount) and some of the Union uniforms actually appear to be similar to a lot of the Argentinian uniforms – just more havlocks and no bedrolls (nothing a little green stuff or Milliput won't take care of). The Major |
Durando | 04 Feb 2016 10:15 p.m. PST |
I see someone has mentioned Pacific wars figs, there js a limited fange from Matchlock Miniagures, you might also look at the Co, onial Spanish via Askari Miniatures. Tiger Miniatjres have some Span Am figs (these you either lkve or hatd) |
EnclavedMicrostate | 06 Feb 2016 9:01 a.m. PST |
Something tells me this would be a great Aeronef scenario… |
KTravlos | 06 Feb 2016 12:36 p.m. PST |
Also you can get them in 10mm by Pendraken |
noelwarlock | 26 Sep 2016 12:24 p.m. PST |
Hi I love the idea of a 1882 Falkland War game, but was thinking on doing something a bit earlier in time period. I was thinking on doing it 1866 – 1868. Reasons why Obscure miniatures do Argentine figures for their Paraguayan War range. Also Perry Miniatures do a great range of British for their British Intervention Force in North America 1861-68 range. My idea is Argentine forces take the Islands to untie the people of Argentina in their war against Paraguay and to stop British intervention in the war. The British have already sent a task force to start an intervention force to invade Paraguay to the Falklands. Here are the links of the miniatures I was thinking on using. Obscure Miniatures :- link Perry Miniatures :- link |
Ney Ney | 26 Sep 2016 2:04 p.m. PST |
This sounds a brilliant idea. Would the Argentines get Gatlins or similar MGs at this time? |
Tango01 | 27 Sep 2016 11:19 a.m. PST |
No my friend… Amicalement Armand |
Lion in the Stars | 27 Sep 2016 2:24 p.m. PST |
Brits would have Gatlings and/or Gardener guns for their MG support. Maxim guns weren't even invented until 1883. |