"A Bold and Ambitious Enterprise " Topic

So err! What's happened to the rest of this thread?

Paul :(

What happened to the posts made after the 7th? And why is the topic only showing that 2 posts have been made? There were some sources mentioned in those posts relating to the debate?

Anyway, so what?

Regimental colours. King's colours. Eagles or Battalion standards- in battle happens.

Regiments get ridden over. Colour bearers get shot or cut down. Their comrades act to secure the colours. Some succeed, some don't, and the emblem gets taken and maybe ends up in a museum of a (former) enemy regiment. Or not.

We know the significance attached such events in regimental tradition or jingoistic histories, but what really is at issue here? For us today. Really.

(And I'm not talking about historical method or good manners)

Kevin:
I'm sorry that you were so offended by my statement that you used the term "oil tanker" in a post on That Other Forum. I was unable to find your remark in a search and had to rely on a less than perfect memory, which is why I did not put the remark in quotation marks, and used the term "crispy critters, which I know that you did not use, but is infantry "soldier talk" for combatants who die from being set on fire.

You did, though, I am sure, state that you caused a number of the enemy to be burned alive and lost no sleep over it.

Would you please cite your actual post so that others can decide whether my statement was simply a minor error of fact or whether I was deliberately insulting you?

You post does suggest to me that some, at least of your hurt and outrage is simulated. Your reply, or absence of it, will go a long way toward demonstrating whether I am right or wrong. Go for it!

Cheers,
Phil

Hi, Kevin:
"So, once again you have misrepresented what I have posted. And it seems to me that it has happened too many times to be either accident or coincidence. False accusations are never attractive or correct."

I answered this post at 0815 hrs yesterday, but although cited on the list of posts, it never appeared on the thread. Just as well, since in that thread I did not quote your actual post on That Other Forum from 9th March 1815:

"I also personally had a 'very satisfying' result to hitting an Iraqi convoy in Kuwait with rockets while they were stopped and refueling. They were a legitimate target and were acquired and destroyed. It was excellent work. And they never knew what hit them and I sleep very well."

Indeed, you do not mention a tanker, merely "refuelling", but I shall leave it to the members of this forum to judge whether or not I willfully and maliciously misquoted you.

Posts like this one of yours make me wonder whether some of your formulaic expressions of outrage and persecution ("You are beyond the pale", "I am disappointed in you", etc) are not a little disingenuous.

Sadly, what brings us together is an interest in the Napoleonic wars, which, surely, should be an interesting source of civilized discussion rather than acrimonious debate.

We have many things in common. Both served our country in the military, and killed an enemy that was determined by politicians in London and Washington, both had young sons with respiratory ailments (I used to hold mine in the shower before we moved to AZ), both have a rightful enthusiasm for the armed forces of our nation, today and yesterday.

Pax, Massena!

Cheers,
Phil

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I thought that the last part of this thread had
disappeared !

dibble

Yes a Piper's Guidon and some odd looking other Standards, and NOT COLOURS, but what counts as a TROPHY ?

In 'Les trophées de la France' Vérillon lists about 34 British Trophies taken during the Napoleonic Wars. I don't believe he lists any from Buenos Aires and about 5 others are said to have been taken from various captured ships.
I wonder if some of the 10 mysterious trophies listed for the Combat de Prieros in 1809 are camp colours/guidons or
such ??

We in hindsight only talk about Colours taken, but what about all the other standards and flags taken? I assume they were just as important to the troops/ships they belonged to.

Cliff

I would say that's a pretty big assumption Cliff. I think there's a bit of a difference between something presented to your regiment/battalion by your monarch and something knocked up on campaign.

Kevin decided to compare eagles to colours. That there is a focus on captured eagles and colours in literature suggests that they were key trophies. French and allied battalion colours seem to have been taken as well, but even they get little mention compared to eagles.

As I posted on another forum I personally don't give a flying fig about how many Eagles were captured.

"The 45th and 105th Eagles, and the controversy that surrounds both captures, though I have read about them in the past, don't really interest me, as the capture of an eagle though a highlight in a battle, interests me much less than say the reason why the Fusilier Brigade routed at Salamanca, or what Vivian did in the final rout of Nappy's army at the end of that great day. Oh! I also care about British colours taken in battle too"

But any information that I deem false and which is flagged up as 'accurate' will get my full attention.

Paul :)

Napoleon seems to have cared plenty about eagles being captured though, given the orders given about taking them into battle, by him and others.

From this distance it's a lesser thing perhaps, but it's worth reflecting on what was considered important back then, to give context to actions.

Plus, the discussion has reminded me to look at the distribution of eagles in my French army.