john lacour | 25 Jan 2016 5:44 p.m. PST |
When my friends and i discovered GHQ micro armor way back in the fall of 1980, I found a copy of WARGAMERS DIGEST called "the advantage of the sand table". One was built in my basement, 8'x8', by me and my high school friends. Our sand table was awesome. You would not have known that there was sand there, as we covered the sand with woodland scinics turf products.We really put alot of work in our setup. I really wish i still had photos. Anyway, i have not played micro armor since, oh, 1995. But i have the "modern" bug. No, not for team yankee, but for the discovery(thanks to a member here) of TAC2, a updated version of the GDW game TACFORCE. Just ordered some GHQ, too. I want to build a sand table in my basement, but instead of sand, i want to use SOIL. I think that the dirt combined with the woodland scinics, will make a nice table. Will i have any problems with mold on a soil table? anyone have any advice? |
ochoin | 25 Jan 2016 6:27 p.m. PST |
Sand tables were always the utopian goal of most wargamers pre- decent terrain tiles & or clothes. I believe sand was abrasive & could damage paint work on models so perhaps soil won't do this? |
John Armatys | 25 Jan 2016 7:06 p.m. PST |
I wouldn't worry about sand damaging paintwork, particularly if your models are based. I'd worry about soil being organic, you mention mould, it could also smell… If it was a good idea I'm sure that people would use soil instead of sand. |
Allen57 | 25 Jan 2016 7:11 p.m. PST |
Soil even if sterilized will hold and attract moisture. Moisture in soil will start bacterial growth which will smell and may be a health issue. The moisture will also cause wood rot. Stick with sand. |
Mako11 | 25 Jan 2016 7:50 p.m. PST |
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Cerdic | 26 Jan 2016 12:14 a.m. PST |
Soil might be harder to mould into shape than sand. Sand has the advantage of smaller and more regularly sized grains. Soil might only work with large figures, say 54mm? You can get 'clean' sand, designed for childrens' sand pits. Should last for ages indoors before it becomes some kind of biohazard! |
Garryowen | 26 Jan 2016 3:10 a.m. PST |
Jack Scruby, as I remember, used half soil and half sand. I also believe that table was in his garage. He could put flat tops over it if he did not want to play on what he called "sand," even though it was half soil. Shortly after I bought a house, my father built a 7' X 15' sand box/table for me. I had then forgotten that Jack used half dirt. The neighbors probably wondered why I had 3500 pounds of sand dumped in my driveway which was then hauled into the house. The house is a bilevel and the wargame room is just off the garage. They also probably though I was nuts when I hooked the garden hose up and took it into the house through the garage. Without wetting the sand, it did not want to hold the shapes I made. Later I re-found the article by Jack who suggested half soil for this problem. Eventually it got to be too much trouble and too messy, so I got rid of the sand and just use the hard tops that I had to fit over it. Tom |
MajorB | 26 Jan 2016 3:51 a.m. PST |
Eventually it got to be too much trouble and too messy, so I got rid of the sand To say nothing of the sheer WEIGHT. Sand tables were always the utopian goal of most wargamers pre- decent terrain tiles & or cloths. Not mine. A friend of mine had a sand table when we were teenagers. Put me right off the idea for life for all the reasons mentioned above! |
RavenscraftCybernetics | 26 Jan 2016 6:39 a.m. PST |
Sand tables are great…. until the cat finds them. |
Ottoathome | 26 Jan 2016 7:02 a.m. PST |
As Major B says… Sand tables are enormously heavy with even dry sand, and then there's the water you have to put into it to mold it, and that means that whatever you make it out of unless it's pure molded PVC it will rot or rust through. Pluse once it's up, IT'S UP and you can't move it away or take it down easily in anything less than a complete demolition. So, if you have a 6 by 8 sand table, that means to have minimally comfortable aisles around it requires three feet all the way around, which makes the room you have it in a minimum dimensions of 12 foot by 14 foot. I know of few house that have a room that can be so dedicated, unless it's an extremely large attic (where the pitch of the roof will inhibit the space, or a garage. The cars and storage will object. Otto |
olicana | 26 Jan 2016 8:07 a.m. PST |
Incredibly diverse terrain for very little money up front. Apart from that they are more downside than upside for the reasons stated above. The simplest I've seen have been a layer of tarp / thick plastic sheet over a table with a few two by twos to make an edge. A couple of hundred weight of sand will go a long way. The sand doesn't need to be several inches deep overall to get a good level of contours – the bottom contour can be the table surface. A few bags of cheap flock will give good colour to a large area. For building 'true representations' of 'actual' terrain without long term storage issues I doubt there is a better solution. You build your terrain then destroy it to build the next lot. But I still wouldn't do it myself because I like a clean room (and so does my wife!). |
(Phil Dutre) | 26 Jan 2016 8:25 a.m. PST |
Sand table for wargaming? Sounds like a 60s approach … :-) Anyway, when using soil, I guess all sorts of bugs and tiny insects will be hard to avoid? Might make for great Scifi scenarios though. Personally, I made enough "sand terrain models" when doing briefings for scouting missions in the armoured infantry. It was still the norm in the early nineties in my nation's army. Perhaps it still is. We had to model the mission's area by hand on the soil when camped out somewhere in the forests, and play through the entire mission ("This piece of wood is the building, this bunch of leaves is the forest. We approach in single file such and so …"). For this purpose, we all had a coloured toy soldier on us. Most guys had green army men. I had a British Grenadier guard :-) |
Sgt Slag | 26 Jan 2016 9:23 a.m. PST |
There are other options available, which do not require water, sand, or periodic anti-bacterial treatments. I would avoid sand and/or soil for health reasons, if nothing else. I personally go for modular terrain using foam insulation sheets for making hills, cliffs, etc. There are many options which are far easier to manage (also far healthier…), than sand/soil tables. It is 'old school' for good reasons. No matter what you decide, I wish you the best of luck. Cheers! |
(Phil Dutre) | 26 Jan 2016 10:13 a.m. PST |
In Wargames Illustrated issue 73 there was a wargamer who used Vermiculite as his terrain material. I know this because I remembered the article and now could quickly looke it up in my Wargames Illustrated index ;-) link |
Garryowen | 26 Jan 2016 2:33 p.m. PST |
Weight and moisture were never a problem with my table. It did have all the problems I mentioned above, though. The box itself my dad lined with really thick sheet plastic. No moisture ever got through. The table was on vinyl tile on concrete floor in the lower level. My father built it so solidly, it probably would hold a Sherman tank! It is impossible to move without dismantling it. My father built it in his basement. All parts were numbered and lettered so he could take it apart, haul it to my house on several loads tied on the roof of his sedan, then put it back together. Quite a father, huh? Besides the floor of the box for the sand, it had a floor for storage underneath with four wide doors on each of the two long sides and lighting inside. If it had more floor clearance, it would make an ideal shelter in the event of a tornado. Tom |
Garryowen | 26 Jan 2016 2:36 p.m. PST |
I forgot that one or two times at HMGS cons at The Host in Lancaster, PA, a fellow had a sand table set up in the Distlefink room. It was on the order of what olicana described above. Tom |
BuckeyeBob | 26 Jan 2016 4:26 p.m. PST |
I had one back in the 70's built pretty much like Olicana described. It was 3ft x 5ft. I used 2 layers of 5 mil plastic on bottom and up the sides. I used "beach" sand (aka playbox sand) and not builders sand which is too sharp and grainy. A lot less water needed to shape the sand. A 1/8 inch piece of plywood as a cover when not in use. No issues with smell, mold or bugs for the 4+ yrs I had it. Now, I use a converted ping pong table…… |
john lacour | 26 Jan 2016 8:18 p.m. PST |
Well, like i noted, way back in the early 80's i had a nice one set up in my basement. had green plastic over the plywood so no troubles with rot. Just kinda like the pure versitility of it. with the woodland scinics flock over the sand, it looked great. Thought by using soil, it would hold contours better… |
john lacour | 26 Jan 2016 8:20 p.m. PST |
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Mako11 | 26 Jan 2016 9:33 p.m. PST |
Easy to keep the weight down too, if you put foam underneath it, to help build up hills, slopes, etc.. Yes, the "soil" we have where I live is mostly a red clay. They use it for all sorts of commercial pipes, clay pots, etc.. Not good for growing anything in, and it really doesn't hold water well, once it is wet. That pretty much runs off. It's very similar, or identical to the clay blocks you can buy in art stores for sculpting with. |
olicana | 27 Jan 2016 2:51 a.m. PST |
There seems to be an issue over the weight of a sand table that doesn't actually exist, IMHO. Most floors would support a modest sized table with two or three hundred weight of sand – I know people heavier than that. The sand only needs to be moist to build the shapes – it's a sand table not a swimming pool – and I've seen people moistening the sand with nothing more than a bottle you would use to spray plants. I don't own a sand table, but my table is at least as heavy due to its construction and it's on the fourth floor of my house. My floor beams are 8" deep and I've not had a problem with it. My table is 12 x 6 (plus drop leaf extension) on two banks of kitchen base units – having carried all the flat packs up the 42 stairs to the top of my house I can assure you it's very heavy! Here's one of the banks shown whilst adding another two more 4 foot units (one each side) to the table length. Note the eclectic mix of units, all bought on the cheap. That table top to the side is the 2' 8" x 6' drop leaf extension (makes table 14' 8" x 6').
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MajorB | 27 Jan 2016 3:48 a.m. PST |
There seems to be an issue over the weight of a sand table that doesn't actually exist, IMHO. It's not so much of an issue as an observation. A sand table is MUCH heavier than a typical dining room table or a sheet of plywood on a couple of trestles. It's not that the floor cannot take the weight, it's the inconvenience if you have to move it for any reason. |
john lacour | 27 Jan 2016 9:56 a.m. PST |
Thanks for the opinions, boys. gonna rethink this. |
Ottoathome | 28 Jan 2016 12:27 a.m. PST |
One note With a sand table you've got to strain out the sand occasionally and clean it up. But more important you have to "recarve" the whole table, every last inch of it with each new battle, whereas with felt or terrain sections you can just pop them on in a few minutes. It could take a whole day to redo a battle as opposed to a few minues, And olcana-- the picture of all the junk on your table is an excellent example of why you should not have a permanent table. Turns into a catch-all |
john lacour | 28 Jan 2016 8:44 a.m. PST |
Well, as i've owned a sand table in the early 1980's, i kinda know that i have to "re carve" the terrain. |
DOUGKL | 02 Feb 2016 8:08 p.m. PST |
My computer was down for about 10 days so I am late to this thread. But here is a link to my flickr page. You can see the flexibility of a sand table if you have the space for one. flickr.com/cameraroll |