"New to ancient/medieval, 15mm minis" Topic

So, having impulse-bought the Impetus rule set and Extra #5 for feudal armies, where do I start with the figures? I'm a complete newbie to the ancient/medieval genre.

A historical match-up with interesting armies for both sides is the goal for now. I want to know which belligerent has the most opposing forces to facilitate a collection.

I'm sort of lost with the range of selections most manufacturers have, so I sort of don't know what I'm looking for. I assume era covers 900AD-1300AD, but most 15mm manufacturers don't use the years covered that much, only medieval classification for most sites.

I know I could buy anything basically and call it such-and-such, but that's not how I like to go about my gaming. What do I look for?

For Medievals I would also look at 100 Years War and Wars of the Roses.
Essex 15mm ranges are pretty good and usually classify troops (certainly knights) by which century.
This is good for reference if you can get one
link

WRG also did books on the Dark ages, Feudal Europe and the Crusades. Worth having a look at sites for The Society of Ancients (includes medieval) and the Lance and Longbow Society too.

There are several contenders for the most ubiquitous troop type to build a 15mm wargames collection from.

Two suggestions would be the late dark age/early feudal mounted knignt and the close order Arab spearman.

Others?

You could do a lot worse than buy a Feudal Army from Blackhat Miniatures it will give you enough figures for both sides. Their Feudal figures are very nice indeed but if you decide to do that be aware that their prices will go up in Febuary so now's the time for a bargain.

This might help

List of all 15mm ancients manufacturers : link

Searchable database of several thousand photos of miniatures, organised by army/era : madaxeman.com/15mm/index.php

More detailed listings for many armies : link

These are nice figures and would give you a focus to this quite diverse period:

link

And they have their opponents as well:

link

From the list of armies in Extra 5 at link the obvious answer to "which belligerent has the most opposing forces" is "The Mongols".

I guess I'm more inclined towards the Feudal Europe list. Impetus basing of 8cm x 6cm leaves a question of how many minis to buy?

Impetus uses large stands with no set number of figures. Essentially, use as many as you want and arrange how you wish. Some people make each base a small diorama. However, unless you are hooked on the Impetus rules, you should consider basing per the WRG/DBX standard to give you the flexibility to use other rules without rebasing.

Impetus seemed a good choice of rules for a beginner for some reason.

Using large Impetus bases can make it difficult to play other sets of rules. On the other hand, if you base using DBx basing you will have no problem playing Impetus.

DBx being De bellis multitudinis and De bellis antiquitatis?

I understand the former is the "big brother" of DBA rules. More figures etc. Isn't DBM out of print or can I get the army lists from somewhere?

I assume era covers 900AD-1300AD,

Nope. All the way up to 1500AD, possibly even slightly beyond that.

DBx being De bellis multitudinis and De bellis antiquitatis?

And a couple of others besides. Forget DBM, what you want is DBA v3.0 and if you want big battles then the Big Battle version of DBA v3.0 (also included in the same rulebook).

Impetus uses four DBx size bases. In 15mm all bases have a frontage of 40mm. Depth and figures per base vary depending on troop type. Base depths are 30mm for horse and 15-20mm for foot. DBx size bases are fairly universal in 15mm.

If you make your bases 40mm wide x 30mm deep, you can use them individually as units for DBX (or for Impetus by putting two of them side by side and calling them a unit, or two bases wide by 2 deep if you want your units to have more figs. in them). The depth of the units in Impetus matters much less than their frontage.

where do I start with the figures?

In reality most people from Europe dressed very similarly during this period – equipment was often sold in different countries or looted as they went. The clothing and equipment did change over time, so that the wars of the Roses would look very different from Normans for instance. The historical evidence for clothing and equipment is not that great and wargamers often having an expected image of what an army should look like that is based on only a tiny amount of historical evidence.

So some manufacturers sell figures that can be used for any nationality, but specific to a periods (late 15th century for instance)

I would do some general reading (library ?) and look at figures (madaxeman is a fantastic resource) and decide what you like for whatever reason. In my opinion, check out ranges from the best manufacturers and use that to guide you. I just got some late imperial romans from legio heroica and they are exquisite. There are many other great manufacturers, but within each catalog some ranges are better than others

I like DBA 3 – the army lists are a great resource for army compositions and further references even if the rules are not to your taste

Most rules nowadays allow you to use different base sizes with the frontage being the essential thing. There is usually something you can do to get a game going. However, I advise against the large base sizes in Impetus as it then becomes awkward to play other games. The advantage of the large base sizes is making each unit a mini-diorama

John

Looking for DBA 3 at the moment. It seems to be the current standard for ancient rules, and very few copies are available currently. I hope I will like the rules once I get them.

Basing on 40 mm frontage seems like a good compromise to be able to play both Impetus and DBA. The suggested 60 mm depth for Impetus bases could be a problem though. 40x30 mm for DBA then line them up for Impetus maybe?

As for the armies and figures, I found my starting period to be Dark Ages just because I like how the Viking, Saxon and Norman dudes look when all painted up and ready for battle.

As mentioned in some of the links posted by madaxeman above, not all "15mm" ranges are the same size nor are they the same "heft". In particular, the ranges which use the larger size (more like 18mm from foot to eye) may not look good next to the smaller size (most of the Essex ranges). So in my case, since I started out with Essex in the 80s, for visual compatibility I stick with ranges such as Essex, New Donnington, Old Glory, War and Empire, Baueda, etc.

Check madaxeman's links for some initial details on this issue. There are also a lot of TMP/Fanaticus threads discussing this, often in the form of "Is brand X compatible with brand Y?". These are worth searching for, as they sometimes include side-by-side photo comparisons.

MH

One advantage of DBA is that armies are very small. The smallest is 24 figures, the largest is 48 (ignoring elephants, chariots, artillery, etc.).

Basic DBA basing is:

Solid infantry: 4 figures on 40mm x 15-20mm base
Fast infantry: 3 figures on 40mm x 20mm base
Skirmish infantry: 2 figures on 40mm x 20mm base
Knights & cavalry; 3 figures on a 40 x 30mm base
Light Horse: 2 figures on a 40mm x 30mm base

One other thing to keep in mind that armies (generally) of 900-1100 would be easier to paint than armies of 1100-1300. The early period is before complex heraldry, surcoats, and horse trappers.

One advantage of DBA is that armies are very small. The smallest is 24 figures, the largest is 48 (ignoring elephants, chariots, artillery, etc.).

A typical DBA game looks like this (happens to be 6mm, but 15mm on a standard 2 x 2 foot board would look the same). My brain is used to the abstraction resulting from the use of 12 bases per side. It is a good way to get started IMHO. Later if you want more figures, you can use the same bases for "Big Battle DBA" or move to other more complicated rule sets using the same WRG-type figure basing.

MH

Be warned though – all DBA games are sort of the same.

I love DBA (and play often) but you lose out on the period feel and detail.

Be warned though – all DBA games are sort of the same.

Really? I don't find that to be the case. A "shield wall" battle between say Vikings and Saxons is quite different from say a Wars of the Roses battle.

DBA can be a good place to start, whatever your final opinion about the game might be.

Legio Heroica for Feudals, imho the best you can buy.
link

I have played DBA (1.0, 2.0, 2.2 and 3.0) and it's OK for a quick game- my group has done a 6 player mini tornament, rotating round three tables and fitted it in comfortably in 4 hours- but I think it's quite a tricky game for a beginner to pick up. I would echo the advice about basing figures for DBA, that 40mm frontage is quite flexible. I have used my DBA bases to play Impetus, Sword and Spear ( good game) and FoGAncients ( which goes up to medieval period). I find that 3 mounted figures will fit comfortably, you can squeeze 4 in if you want to represent real shock cavalry and 2 would be good for skirmishing types like horse archers. 4 heavy infantry, 3 medium and 2 light are pretty standard as well.
Glad to see McWong has another vote for Legio Heroica.

Forget DBM, what you want is DBA v3.0 and if you want big battles then the Big Battle version of DBA v3.0 (also included in the same rulebook).

I concur. The latest DBA format (version 3.0) is very useable, with rules, diagrams and army lists all in the one hardback tome. I've found the core rules (a dozen pages??) sufficiently concise to do away with quick reference sheets altogether. Another appeal is the ease of transition from small battles to big battles, which DBA handles very nicely. Definitely good rules to make a start in the hobby.