"Unit markings on Pz III" Topic

I am about to add the decals to a Pz III L that I've been working on for the Russian Front and found an art picture on line of a Pz III in Panzer Grey with the number "1" in white on the turret sides and again in white the number "1 again plus after it the letter K on the rear of the turret storage bin.

Am I correct in assuming the letter "K" stands for the von Kleist Corps? The number "1" identifies it as the first tank in the troop?

Thanks,

Terry

It may mean it's the company commanders tank. There's a wide variety of tank numbering conventions, it really depends on which particular unit you wish to model

The text with the art work is in Japanese so I am not sure which unit it is. I now the letter "K" was used for the Von Kleist Corps, but I am not sure in this instance.

Thanks for the reply,

Terry

Been thinking I wonder since the tank number is "1" could the "K" stand for Kommander????

Terry

No. It would be 'fuhrer' (leader)or 'chef' (chief); 'befehlshaber' is the German word for commander and it military terms denotes a senior officer.

The turret number refers to the vehicle (with the HQ radio set), not the guy riding in it, and the kompaniefuhrer or kompaniechef could just as easily be in a car, especially early war

As battalion HQ vehicles used Roman numerals, your panzer is the 1st company HQ vehicle. However Panzergruppe von Kleist never went to Russia! It was disbanded and reorganized in May 1941 after the campaign in Yugoslavia………….

Being a German i can tell you that K could stand for Kommandant. Führer and Befehlshaber were not commonly used terms for Tank designation.
But K as already mentioned could also stand for "Kleist"

It could also stand for kaleun, kaput, kurz or kasebrot which were also not used for tank designation! Tanks and other vehicles were identified by call numbers, not letters. Period.

In the German Army, a company commander is referred to as a Kompaniechef; Kompaniekommandant is the Austrian equivalent, but since we are talking about WWII, the Austrian army doesn't actually exist at this time. The 'staff' slots at company level are:

Kompaniechef = Einheitsführer (company commander – der Chef)

Kompaniefeldwebel = company first sergeant/CSM (der Spiess) link

Kompanieführer = substitute company commander in case of absence of the ‘Kompaniechef ' – also Volksgrenadier company commander.

Kompanietruppführer = Company headquarters section leader

Kommandeur [plural: Kommandeure]: Commander. Typically the person commanding a unit such as a Divisionskommandeur. Other uses were rare except in the artillery branch. An Artillerie-Kommandeur or Arko was a numbered HQ used to control artillery assets at Korps level. Some were also called Artillerie-Führer for a short period in the war. Later in the war Höherer Artillerie-Kommandeur or Harko were created to control artillery assets at the Armee level.

Today's show was brought to you by the letter K :)

Ok number4

I am sure that was extremely helpful for Terry37.

Hmmm, I am not sure. I may just do the tank that way and not worry about it, or just leave the numbers off. The army I am doing it for is the 13th Panzer Division.

Thanks all,

Terry

The 11th Pz Div which was part of von Kleists Panzergruppe (which was renamed 1. Panzergruppe in Barbarossa, but at least old units still used the capital K), used a a single or double digit for their vehicle markings on the Eastern front. Later they changed to the more common 3 digit vehicle marking system.

A Quick google search seems to indicate that the 13th Pz Div used the 3 digit system in Barbarossa, seems to be solid white numbers. See for instance link on the 3 digit system.

Tanks and other vehicles were identified by call numbers, not letters. Period.

Not so.

In "Wehrmacht Camouflage and Markings" by Davies there is a photo of a Pz III of Kleist's panzergruppe in France with the turret marking "Adj" and no turret numbers.

Through searching for photos of Kleist's tanks it has become clear to me that some (I cannot say how many) continued to wear the letter 'K' well into Barbarossa. The caption to one photo I found of a Pz III with a 'K' claims that it was taken in the Caucasus in 1942.

Yes, the Regimental command vehicles were often marked with a big R as well (and the battalion command vehicles often had the prefix I or II etc).

As with everything to do with WW2 German vehicle markings, there are endless exceptions to the rules.

I am sure the Bundeswehr is far more disciplined:)

This is probably the source of the illustration the op refers to:

You can quite clearly see the 11th Pz symbol on the tanks.

Thanks Martin, I already said "battalion HQ vehicles used Roman numerals" before the thread moved on to company staff markings. But if that's the photo we are talking about, 11 Panzer wasn't part of gruppe von Kleist.

It seems 11th panzer used a two digit system rather than the regular three, and the K was carried on the rear, but not the sides of the 1st vehicle, so "1K" in this case would indeed mean 1st Kompanie (not kommandeur)

The mysterious K on the turret bin also appears in this one – even stranger!

^ This is the very photo I mentioned said to be of a unit of Kleist's First Panzer Army in the offensive into the Caucasus in 1942. A 'K' on those tanks would probably be expected.

Thanks all! This just gets better and better!!!

Terry

You're welcome. It's just a pity that you cannot post that Pz III art picture, or at least a link to it. That would be of interest to me anyway.

Great stuff, I've not seen either of those two photos before. Nothing like a burning BT to liven things up;)

Deephorse, Let me see about getting the link. If so, I'll add it.

Terry

OK, if this works I have done a cut and paste of the source for my scheme. I do not know the book this comes from but if I did, I'd probably try to get a copy if it isn't too much. Look at the second full tank drawing down and you'll see it. I very much suspect the photo is the source for it.

[URL=http://s257.photobucket.com/user/terry37photos/media/Misc/6_fs_zpsbljetd6l.jpg.html]

[/URL]

Terry

I suspect that it will be "The Tartar Road".

link

£14.99 GBP in the U.K., maybe less if you search around.

Terry

The book is "ONSLAUGHT – The German Invasion of Soviet Russia"
See review at:
link

Annoyingly I have that book, but then you cannot remember every page of every book you own.

Also annoyng is that now that I have dug that book out I can see that the caption for the Pz III in question is wrong. It wrongly identifies
Kleist's Panzergruppe as 4 rather than 1. At least we now know that the 'K' is for Panzergruppe 1 and not for any of the other words given above.

The white rhomboid identifies the first company whilst the number is that of the individual vehicle.

Thats actually a spare turret bin on the photo by Number4. I didn't know they came off.

Deephorse: if the white romboid represents the first comoany, which would identify the other companies? The color of the romboid? What would be for example the identification of the second company?
Thanks a lot,

Regards,

A spare turret bin seems a bit odd.I suppose it's essentially another storage box.
They sort of hook on.

Fairly common in 1941 to see spare bins or other boxes on the rear deck of Panzer III's.

Powermonger. I'm afraid that I have no information on what colours other companies might have used. I have references to a PzII of 5th company, 2nd Bn. of Pz Regt. 15 using a white circle, and PzIVs of the medium companies having no symbol. Further there is an internet photo of a comprehensively destroyed PzIII attributing it to Pz Regt. 15, which has no turret marking beyond the turret number. But we all know how misleading photo captions can be!