"21st Panzer Normandy" Topic

Does anyone know if they used any old French tanks? I am not talking about all the conversions or modified French equipment that they used.
Thanks!

I don't think so, at least not during the fighting. They had French tanks in the years before the fighting at Normandy (when it was the schnell brigade). However by June of 1944 the 22nd Panzer Regiment was fully equipped with Pzkw VI tanks.

Wikipedia states that the panzer regiment had:

21st Panzer comprised the following when committed to action: 117 PzKpfw IVs, 12 Flakpanzer 38(t), 2 Panzerbefehlswagen and 10 Sturmgeschütz.[8]

Now there were some training battalions in Normandy that did have French prewar tanks. A little googlefoo should tell you who they were.

Wikipedia states …. LOL ;-)

1st June Panzer IV (long barrel):
98 combat ready ; 6 short term repair; 9 long term repair
this number gradually reduced to just 20 combat ready by 6th August in spite of some replacements & a mere 10 by the 22nd.

On 1st June, The HQ of II/Pz.Regt.22 had 5 PzkfwIV's &
3 Somuas(befehlswagen). They had just 15 long barreled PzkfwIV's; 6 short barreled PzkfwIV's; 35 Somua & 2 Hotchkiss tanks.

I/Pz.Regt. 22 was pretty much up to strength but the HQ used some long & short barreled PzkfwIII's as did the Regimental HQ for 22 Pz.Regt.

While the 21st PD did have French tanks 'on the books' on 1st June (as listed above), they were actually on their way to Hungary, to equip some internal security panzer units there. Some might also have been passed to Pz Bns 205 and 206 in Cherbourg and Le Havre. The crews had already been sent to Mailly-le-Camp, near Paris, to receive a new shipment of Pz IVs. These Pz IVs were then drip-fed into Normandy as the campaign went on.

I wish I'd known this before painting a load of S35s and H39s… :(

I believe some of the units of the 21st were actually in the process of training and receiving replacements for their French tanks when the invasion took place. As mentioned, there were many converted support vehicles but I do believe most "tanks" were either already replaced or crews were off line training and receiving new tanks when the invasion started.

There were some training battalions in the same neighborhood that were using French tanks that saw combat with them but they were not part of the 21st Pz Division.

This is a link to the Fire & Fury page for the 21st Panzer Division. It is a nice source of information as is their entire website.

PDF link

On page 6, notation b. lists the info about the French tanks on the division's rolls as of 06/01/1944, but states that there is no evidence that the French tanks were actually present at the time of the invasion.

I need to update that doc with the new information re Hungary… ;)

Thanks ZoC. That would explain why II/22 only had 5 PzKfwIV's per company for the counter attack.

Those training units would be Panzerabteilung 206 and Panzerausbildungsabteilung 100

Panzer Ersatz und Ausbildungs Abteilung 100 is of course the unit that engaged the US Airborne troops and La Fiere

link

206 were recommended transfer of Somuas on 1st April 1944 but there is no evidence to show they got them.

100 didn't get any tanks from 21st I don't think.

As Jemima states, they were entrained for Hungary by the 1st June but still recorded on the returns.

21st also received a small number of Panzer IV replacements during the campaign.

Wikipedia states …. LOL ;-)

Hey, even your number is about what the wiki said. And its source is this book:

link

Wiki probably isn't the best source, but it's usually good enough.

However for wargames purposes!!!!

Tally Ho!

Wot Piers said. There was talk of tanks being transferred to 205 & 206, but no evidence they ever arrived.

206 at Cherbourg was a regular unit rather than a training unit. Same with 205 in Le Havre and 203 on the Channel Islands. There were other garrison panzer units dotted about the place, similarly equipped with obsolete French armour (including the one mentioned in Hungary).

711th Infantry Division in the Merville – Dives-dur-Mer area also got its hands on at least one Char B and a couple of R35s from somewhere.

nice book

BTW, the 8th Company was equipped with six Pz IV B/C with short-barrelled 75mm guns. It may have received replacement Px IV H, but this isn't clear. At least some of the B/Cs were still in action in August 1944.

For more information also try:
21. Panzer Division; Author; Jean-Claude Perrigault: Publisher; Heimdal.

Panzers and the Battle for Normandy: Author; Bernage: Publisher; Heimdal

Normandy 1944: Author; Niklaus Zeterling: Publisher; Fedorowicz

Invasion! They're Coming! Author; Carell: Publisher; Schiffer

I recently purchased the translation of the Perrigault: 21 Panzer Division. "The Combat History Of The 21.Panzer Division" – Koetenhaus. Chock full of information including formations sizes and equipment.

link

Perrigault is great, though be aware that all of the above repeat the same mistakes that were made by the writer of the 21 PD Kstn (particularly the orbat for StuG Bn 200, where the ratio of 75mm to 105mm SPs is reversed and no details re command/OP vehicles).

I'd also recommend Dalglish's Over The Battlefield: Operation Goodwood, which refers directly to Becker's account and clearly shows the correct orbat for StuG Bn 200 in Becker's after-action report maps.

I second Dalglishs Book on Goodwood, great read, and very well written.

John

I'll check that out when I get back from down south John – We got some more 1/35 armour and I can feel a Goodwood game coming on …