"The Demise of Alien Dungeon - Interesting read" Topic

I found this blog entry by author Blane L. Pardoe. It's his opinion and an interesting read. I thought the comments were interesting too….

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"I couldn't find any games at local hobby shops. This was usually a sign that the game was not being supported well in the hobby shops – which was the case. "

I couldn't even find any local hobby shops!

The most prevalent theme among failed Kickstarters is the underestimating of costs of production--and usually it is the sort of error that should have been avoidable, not one due to a sudden change that could not have been predicted. That, and shipping costs.

"I hope he(ernie)rots in hell". yeah, over toys.

I'm not sure how one would expect the FLGS or hobby store to support a product without, well, product.

DM

So glad I did not back this Kickstarter even though I wanted too.

Between this, Winter War, and Defiance games, I think it'll change the way that gamers look at Kickstarter.

"I hope he(ernie)rots in hell". yeah, over toys.

The claim was not just 'over toys', but the experiences of someone who worked with him. It IS a business, and money at a scale that can effect lives.

Not saying a valid comment, just not automatically as trivial as you suggest.

I couldn't even find any local hobby shops!

…removed whine about our store…

We actually got some product before we understood how supporters weren't. I'm still sorry to all about that.

On the other hand, I'm still 'investing' in KS's. I keep my expectations low, mind you.

Doug

I backed it for around $350. USD My local FLGS got in some stuff (my fault I guess, I talked the KS up). I did buy a set of artillery / vehicle trenches from them…half from desire, half from feeling a little guilty, given events.

A guy in Toledo said he DID get the 3rd wave, he told me yesterday he got everything except a sheet of transfers. I like most did not receive my 3rd wave before the demise of AD.

And yes, wishing someone rots in hell because if a game is a little bit over the top. But as my wife pointed out, it sounds like that person has had previous dealings with Earnie Baker, and maybe that comment was based on a personal conflict…..

I've only supported one Kickstarter and that was the first Reaper Bones product. It was well worth the money and I knew that Reaper had a good tract record. Plus a number of Bones were already on the shelf at game stores prior to the Kickstarter. So Reaper had already demonstrated they could produce the product and the Kickstarter was directed at expanding the offerings of existing metals in the Bones product.

It does appear that Ernie failed to understand a number of axioms and here is the result. How can you not have an idea of how much your manufacturing costs are going to run????

And blaming the customer is always a bad way to go. In the end you have to make good on your promises or the customer will go elsewhere. Also in this day and age of social media and things like Yelp! bad press will travel exceptionally fast. As a friend of mine who is a former Army NCO will tell you one F up kills ten attaboys! War gamers are fickle and this is a really small pond when compared to the overall hobby market. You cannot afford to be seen as anything less than superb in service and product.

Sad really as I have a friend who went full bore into the Kickstarter and while he did get a lot of his stuff and has run some excellent games of All Quiet on the Martian Front there were many things he did not get. He therefore did not get all that he paid for and that is just wrong. It will be interesting to see if anyone comes along to pick up the pieces. I have my doubts. As the author of the article mentioned there are now some secondary vendors offering alternatives. All Quiet is a good game and a fun genre that clearly had strong interest. The mega games put on at Historicon were a huge draw and fun. Ah well first world problems and all that…

There is one other thing to consider, and is this something that I have heard from several individuals who have done kickstarters, providers for the project know exactly how much money you have on hand, which often results in their next words being, "we under estimated the cost of doing this!"

When reading some post on TMP by the individual who did Winter War, it appeared to me that the people who were to do the casting of the tanks backed out when they saw how many they had to do.

Defiance Games is one company, who's past experience prior to their kickstarter, should have keep that kickstarter from ever reaching it's goal. And, wasn't there further discussion on this page that the owner of that company also took the money from another companies kickstarter without delivering a thing, causing that kickstarter to fail.

My basic point is that some kickstarters fail not necessarily do the owner of the kickstarter, but because their providers let them down.

We actually got some product before we understood how supporters weren't.

How supporters weren't what?

My basic point is that some kickstarters fail not necessarily due to the owner of the kickstarter, but because their providers let them down.

Which simply suggests that they have not set up sensible contracts with clauses defining liability due to non-delivery.

I don't think it's just for toys…

Well, ok, but to wish someone rots in hell, in conection to toys, is still way over the top.

Here's an interview with THE MAN himself, right here:
YouTube link

I went into All Quiet at the top level, and although I did not receive everything I was supposed to get, my $400 USD investment got me $1,700 USD worth of product. I have no ill feelings towards Ernie for the approximately $100 USD of stuff I did not get. I am sorry that many backers lost a lot of dough but I wish Barb and Ernie well and hope that they can come out the other side of this.

I will say that every interaction I had with Ernie at numerous shows was pleasant. He was enthused about All Quiet and I was convinced (and still am) that he was honestly out to make a great game and support it thoroughly. Again, I am sorry for all those who lost money but I can't imagine how anybody could think that this sort of demise was planned in any way. Badly handled, yes, but nobody was out to "take" any of the Kickstarter backers.

Well, ok, but to wish someone rots in hell, in conection to toys, is still way over the top.

Your opinion, but $304,720.00 USD was collected to bring this project to life. If you've got a spare $304,720.00 USD, you can wish him anywhere you want!

Production and shipping costs end up killing a lot of kickstarters, I've noticed.

$1,700 USD worth of product for $400. USD The issue isn't really a mystery.

DM

A number of Kickstarters that produce a physical product have run into issues. If the company misses its estimates on production or on shipping things can go very badly on a large scale. I think this has hurt not only Kickstarters but other startups as well.

I'm surprised it ended up this way, from what I'd seen at shows in the UK the game was doing very well, there seemed to be demo and participation games popping up all over the country. Appearances can obviously be highly deceptive!

Appearances can obviously be highly deceptive!

It's called "preaching to the choir" syndrome. Just like how certain movies generate a lot of buzz and excitement at Comicon only to bomb at the box office. 'Dredd' anyone?

Between this, Winter War, and Defiance Games, I think it'll change the way that gamers look at Kickstarter.

Don't forget Palladium Books and 'Robotech.' But not necessarily. People should have no problem funding KS projects from companies with proven track records. The last two projects I backed at top level were Guillotine Games' 'Zombicide: Black Plague' and Devil Pig's 'Heroes of Normandie: Strategic Resupply,' both of which were funded successfully and then some.

You just have to pick the right projects.

Dwarven Forge has always delivered, as had Goodman Games (the RPG company). I do think that anymore you need to be careful of anyone without a proven track record.

There's a certain MAD doctrine about kick starters.

That's Mutually Assured Deception.

The "Starters" are really deceiving the "kickers" by tacitly suggesting they are going to provide a vast new lines of cool stuff, which will be supported forever, and which will form a continuing bizarre or marvelous and wonderful things for them to buy.

"The "kickers" (the people who kick-in the money are deceiving the "starters" by tacitly implying that they will buy HUGE amounts of this stuff over the near term and until crack of doom.

The fault in the logic is that the "starter" believes that the cash flow will be sustained by a continuing drumbeat of new purchases, allowing him to fund the expansion of the line indefinitely. The "kicker" assumes that his "kick" will be sufficient to accomplish what he wishes, and that those wishes can be honored without his participation till the starter makes something he wishes.

All of this reinforced by the fact that here we are, more than 100 years into the hobby and no one so far has made miniatures of the XXXXXXXXXX war. If it was popular, more popular than Napoleonics, they would have made them instead of Napoleonics.

$1,700 worth of product for $400. USD The issue isn't really a mystery.

Yup.

I'd have to do some digging to see just how much the discount was for Robotech. Yeah, I'm still short half the stuff promised, but having to go from 9 sprues to 30 due to all the extras promised is a killer at any level, just in terms of production time.

Let's see here… the Battle Cry set ($140 pledge) is the starter box ($100) with 4 extra Valks ($72), 12x extra Regults ($72), 4x Tomahawk/Defender destroids ($32), an additional Glaug and 2x Quel-Regult recon pods (guesstimating at $72 USD, lumping in the character Glaug and recovery pods), 12x UEDF dice, 12x Zent dice, Rick Hunter (~$20) and Roy Fokker character Valks (~$20), 2x Spartans and 2x Phalanx ($32), Character Glaug, 4x Artillery Regults ($36), Miriya character battle armor, 3x Gnerl fighters, 3x male Zent battle armors, 1x Zent and 1x UEDF decal sheet, 2x Super Valks, Command Point tokens, 3x female Zent battle armor, 2x Lancer space fighters, 2x recovery pods, and 2x drone fighters.

I'm up to over $450 USD just in the wave 1 items (everything I've put a price for). Wave 2 looks to be about that much more, for a total of ~$900 MSRP in product for $140. USD

Ottoathome Supporting Member of TMP 24 Jan 2016 5:23 p.m. PST:

The "Starters" are really deceiving the "kickers" by tacitly suggesting they are going to provide a vast new lines of cool stuff, which will be supported forever, and which will form a continuing bizarre or marvelous and wonderful things for them to buy

I've never bought into this idea myself. I'm happy with getting the specific hot new toyz that are promised to me when the project fulfills. I pledge for stuff that is ubiquitous enough to use across a variety of game systems.

I find the whole article slightly bizarre where he suggests that Kickstarter shouldn't be used to raise funds for a new project that may not otherwise happen but should be used for pre-ordering instead.

That is exactly the OPPOSITE of what Kickstarter is for!

He also has a very narrow view of the games industry as he believes that everyone should provide fiction, in-store gaming support, etc – I am still going after 11 years without doing any of that!

Mike

Ottoathome makes a good point. KS's depend too much on rosy projections of sales only to find out that they can't fulfill all the promises made when sales fall short.

It's a Catch-22. If they don't make the promises attractive enough the KS might not get funded, and if the promises are too good they may find out that they can't deliver. But people who back KS's should be well aware of the risks vs. benefits equation.

I've noticed that the really massively-successful KS seem to be the ones with the most trouble.

The KS that just barely make it without a stupid amount of freebie stretch goals seem to get processed through just fine.

Something like AQotMF or Robotech, hell, even OGRE, seem to end up massively delayed and/or with multiple shipping waves, and run the companies into trouble due to too many damn freebies.

I was on the other side of the equation.
I got about $400 USD worth of items for my $2,400 USD pledge.

That hurts, but I do love the setting of the game. And there are some groups trying to keep it going despite the end of AD.
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I think the fact that people are offering 3D prints of the models encouraging. It is much better for a game when one company is not the sole source of all he parts (despite this being the every growing trend in the market).

It would have been nice if Ernie would have freed all the IP or given it to the backers who got shorted. But that is pie-in-the-sky thinking.

Ottoathome makes a good point. KS's depend too much on rosy projections of sales only to find out that they can't fulfill all the promises made when sales fall short.

Yes, I do think this is an issue, particularly if the product is all new, as opposed to supporting an existing game. This is one reason why I'm more skeptical of Kickstarters that are intending to launch a new game and/or minis line. If a sizable percentage of folks who think your new game idea is great has already backed your KS and have loads of stuff, you've already killed your own market since you've already picked all the low hanging fruit in terms of sales. So the KS actually needs to be large enough to launch the initial product line AND get you to a 'wave 2' launch with even newer product you can sell to your initial backers. Which is a tough curve to climb.

-Will

People gave money for a product they did not get. I understand sometimes things happen but the ethical way to deal with problems is to be up front and provide information. "I have problems with shipping costs, suppliers dropped out, sculptors are slow" are all understandable and fixable problems. I took your money, gave you some of what you purchased and then disappeared without a trace is not ethical, nor understandable.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek
Bunker Talk blog

The fantasy game they were getting ready to do looked incredibly promising and the miniatures looked quite nice, and then it just disappeared. Very sad.

@ Landorl – This thread over on the Unofficial AQotMF forum might be of interest: aqmf.freeforums.net/thread/151/crush-relaunching-battle-valor-fantasy

And yet AQotMF is one of the few KS games I've seen in model shops. True, I did have to go from my country ( We have almost nothing but Games Orkshop stores ) to Aussie, but that's not a big step. :)

"I've come to see Kickstarters as great ways to get gamers into a new game system, but they can't be your sole means of funding a game system or building your player-base. You have to be prepared to produce the game with your own funding. The Kickstarter should be the means of getting your game into player's hands to generate some good buzz. The age of relying on Kickstarter alone to fund your company start-up for gaming is fading and fading fast."

Mike, I'm going to somewhat disagree with your statement. Markets mature, and KS is doing so. It's not difficult to find a KS project that's really a pre-order and marketing tool, rather than a source of funding. There *are* still projects which reduce the risk of a project by receiving the cash up front and knowing the demand before production, but there are NO ways KS "should" be used -- otherwise, KS would cancel the project, wouldn't they? If *you* only want to fund project that KS "is for", you certainly should do so. The best experience is learned with other people's money.

Lion in the Stars repeats what I have said elsewhere. Smaller KS with limited goals do seem to work better. Once a KS gets vastly more funds than required my interest drops off – regardless of the subject.

I can't agree with that sentiment, either. All of Cool Mini or Not's Zombicide Kickstarters have run into the multi-millions of dollars and they have all delivered on time and completely and offered tons of freebies, too. Their other KS projects have also done exceedingly well and had no problems with finishing. Apparently the Exploding Kittens card game set all time records for it's contributions and it was right on time. So you can't automatically count out a project that garners a huge amount of attention, backers, and cash because many DO come to a successful conclusion.

As a Kickstarter supporter of All Quiet, I'm sorry to see them go but the reason is not cost, planning or Kickstarter but game design.

Good concept, good miniatures (HO scale inspired idea), good support at conventions etc. Dull game. When I read the rules my heart broke for them. My son and his friends played and it didn't interest them for 15 minutes. Pure You go I go, little variation in tactics, MGs more cost effective than cannons at killing Walkers – just bad (except for d10s).

Compare to a great design like X-Wing: order chits, interacvtive sequence of play, troop quality well handled, no d6 (OK All Quiet got that right). It makes a big difference – you can get by at convention demos with pretty but tactically dull games but not when people play at home and considering buying more product.

Companies need to spend far less on glossy pictures and far more on design and play test. Not every company has the market muscle that GW does to push mediocre designs on us.

Object lesson. But a sad one. Got lots of their stuff will probably do a version of my Combat Command game using this their miniatures. So all not lost.

TomT

Can't say that I agree it is a dull game. It could use some improvement, but that was where the support of the company failed.

I'm not sure the game even matters. People buy the miniatures.

Blackwater Gulch was successful, and the rules were insipid. But there are literally dozens of western systems already, and people would have looked at the kickstarter imagining playing TRWNN or DMH with the minis.

I'm just sad to see a potentially-great Victorian sci-fi go down in flames. I hope someone else (a more established producer) is able to get the rights to it, once the smoke clears.

I'm going to shamelessly mention here that the first of my Martian War novels, originally meant to compliment the All Quiet game, but now being published independently will be coming out next month. It's a good story and will hopefully help keep the idea alive.

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Barb and Ernie were like the foundation of the Cons, I did buy in to two of there kickstarters the first one didn't made it but got all my stuff. All Quiet is the same I got most of it but the last shipment never make it. This is sad because they should have made good, they had product if they contacted me and asked for shipping I would have paid them, this will prevent them from ever getting back into the hobby as a business and that's sad I liked them both.