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"Battalions with out Pike in TYW" Topic


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DGT12319 Jan 2016 10:48 a.m. PST

Hello all,
Does anyone know what the average percentage in 1630's of an army that would be shot without pike?
I have read several books and I keep seeing that the Swedish and Imperial forces had problems fielding full units with pike and shot due to a lack of pike or pike men. Is this correct?
Any help is appreciated.
Thank you in advance. My apologies about the incorrect spacing in the title.
David

Who asked this joker19 Jan 2016 11:14 a.m. PST

Commanded shot was used fairly frequently but I doubt it was because they had no pike. Mainly it was to support the horse. I'll let someone else who is more informed on these things elaborate. I am sure I've missed something.

Phillius Sponsoring Member of TMP19 Jan 2016 12:13 p.m. PST

When the Germans (Catholic) gathered their component of the Spanish/Allied army that fought at Rocroi, they primarily took their foot from garrisons, and these were all shot.

They formed the second and third lines of the Spanish/Allied army at the battle. Probably the reason Conde's cavalry rode them down so easily if they had no pikes.

Ad-hoc units of shot seem to have been the norm in the later war. Quick to organize, mount them easily on nags so they keep up with the cavalry.

IN the 1630s, I am not so sure.

Daniel S19 Jan 2016 2:14 p.m. PST

It depends on how you define "full units with pike and shot"?

For example, Colonel Horn commands a regiment of Finnish infantry made up of 8 companies. According to Swedish regulations these 8 companies are to be used to form two infantry squadrons (a battalion sized unit) each with 4 companies and each squadron was supposed to have a ratio of pike to shot of 1:1. However due to losses Colonel Horn can only get a ratio 1 pike to 2 shot, otherwise the squadron is at regulation strenght (not counting commanded musketeers). In this case has Col. Horn failed to field "full units with pike and shot"?

The basic problem was that it was hard for units to recruit enough pikemen to reach the ratios of pike to shot laid down in regulations and/or contracts. And the ever present attrition on a campaign often made the problem even worse.

Take for example the Duke of Holstein's regiment of Imperial foot: link
On paper it should have fielded 1260 musketeers and 840 pikemen in 7 companies, yet it's actual strenght was 1361 musketeers and only 327 pikemen(!).

Faced with a shortage of pikemen the army commander could basicly do one of 3 things depending on the circumstances.

1. Accept a ratio that was lower than that laid down by the regulations as long as it was "good enough". I.e Bavarian regiments forming their battalions with a ratio of 1 pike to 2 shot instead of the 2 pike to 3 shot laid down in regulations.

2. Reform and combine units to bring the battlefield units closer to regulation strenght. I.e Swedish army before Breitenfeld when the original 8 brigades of infantry were reformed into 7 brigades in order to give each brigade a decent pike strenght. This of course left the army with a lot of surplus musketeers which were used to form large detachments of commanded shot attached to the cavalry wings as well as a vanguard of musketeers that acted as spearhead for the army's advance to the battlefield.

3. Take steps to increase the number of pikemen including forcing regimental commanders to rearm and retrain musketeers as pikemen while punishing any soldier who tried to convert himself from a pikeman to a musketeer. I.e the Imperial army in 1641 when army musters revealed that only 20% of the infantry was armed with pikes.


As for giving a average % for an entire decade that is not possible as the information available has way too many gaps. It is possible to provide "snap shots" of more focused information but even for the Swedes who were pretty obsessive about record keeping it is hard to provide continous information without gaps for longer periods of time. (And once Gustavus dies the gaps get more and more serious for the Swedes as well).

Stavka19 Jan 2016 5:24 p.m. PST

3. Take steps to increase the number of pikemen including forcing regimental commanders to rearm and retrain musketeers as pikemen while punishing any soldier who tried to convert himself from a pikeman to a musketeer. I.e the Imperial army in 1641 when army musters revealed that only 20% of the infantry was armed with pikes.

Only 20%! That's an eye-opener.

Do we have any idea at all as to how successful the Imperial authorities were at enforcing a return to more pikemen?

DGT12320 Jan 2016 9:53 a.m. PST

Thank you all for the info! Daniel S item #2 & #3 is what I was looking for. Only 20% is astounding I did not realize it got that low!
Would anyone have any info on the 1630-1634 time frame? Or the battles of Breitenfeld & Lutzen? Using the items Daniel S posted (#2 & #3 above) as basis for data? Hope that makes sense.
Thank you
David

Daniel S20 Jan 2016 2:20 p.m. PST

For a bit of information about Breitenfeld have a look at the order of battles I posted in this thread: TMP link

The Lutzen information can be found the in the Osprey campaign series volume covering the battle link It is only for the Swedes that detailed information is available and at Lützen the brigades fought as they organised prior to the battle with the exception that commanded musketeers were drawn from various brigades in order to create the 10 detachments of commanded shot (each of 200 men). As a result the brigades had a very varied ratio of pike to shot.

20% seems to have been a low mark for the Imperial army and forced the high command to take action though we don't know how effective their efforts were.

DGT12322 Jan 2016 4:54 a.m. PST

Thank you Daniel S, excellent data!

Marcus Brutus22 Jan 2016 9:22 p.m. PST

Just finished reading Lutzen. First Osprey campaign that I've read from front to finish. Extremely well written and researched. Brzezinski really knows his stuff and knows how to write.

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