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"5 Best Things About Fire and Fury" Topic


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Action Log

26 Aug 2016 12:52 p.m. PST
by Editor in Chief Bill

  • Removed from TMP Poll Suggestions board


2,350 hits since 16 Jan 2016
©1994-2018 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian16 Jan 2016 12:21 p.m. PST

Why do you like these rules?

BuckeyeBob16 Jan 2016 12:40 p.m. PST

WW2 rules (no experience with the ACW ruleset)
1) Straight forward, logical set of rules clearly written and will illustrated with samples on how they apply.
2) D10 based and not buckets of d6's with savings rolls.
3) One rulebook covers it all without need to buy supplemental rulebooks. (tho supplemental data cards for early war and desert are required for those theaters).
4) Nicely illustrated and clearly printed infantry/vehicle data cards that fit into standard "baseball" card sized page protectors.
5) Great support on their web site with lots of scenarios (tho more smaller sized scenarios are preferred by me rather than many of the huge ones they have listed)

MSU John16 Jan 2016 1:35 p.m. PST

Nice flow.
Command rules create variable responses, capturing fog of war.
Easy mechanics for firing.
Melee is competitive – you roll a 10, opponent rolls a 1, you can snatch victory from the jaws of certain defeat.

Frederick Supporting Member of TMP16 Jan 2016 1:59 p.m. PST

Easy flow and mechanics

Certain degree of unpredictability in what your units do (as noted, the Fog of War)

Relatively easily captures a fair range of unit capabilities

Lots of support out there

Widely known

Personal logo Saber6 Supporting Member of TMP Fezian16 Jan 2016 4:14 p.m. PST

Easy to teach
Fast play (real time or better)
Good involvement of players during a turn

Personal logo Dances with Clydesdales Supporting Member of TMP16 Jan 2016 5:45 p.m. PST

1)Maneuver table/no guarantee units will do what you want
2)Simple enough for conventions/easy to teach
3)You can do large battles in a reasonable amount of time
4)Stand removal/No casualty caps
5)Consistent basing system/# of figures per base doesn't matter

GatorDave Supporting Member of TMP16 Jan 2016 6:13 p.m. PST

Al the above plus a lot less arguing about the rules than other sets we have played!

Yellow Admiral Supporting Member of TMP16 Jan 2016 8:53 p.m. PST

Easy to teach, easy to play, elegantly streamlined, seems to get the pace of battle about right.

- Ix

Forager16 Jan 2016 11:11 p.m. PST

Well written with lots of examples and useful diagrams

Allow large battles to be played in reasonable time

Different brigade formations improve tactical feel

Limited control of units from Maneuver Table

Easy to introduce to new players

Early morning writer Inactive Member17 Jan 2016 12:11 a.m. PST

It plays like a game rather than a simulation.

Sudwind Inactive Member17 Jan 2016 12:26 a.m. PST

Easy to teach to new players.

The game does make large battles manageable on the tabletop.

CATenWolde Inactive Member17 Jan 2016 3:56 a.m. PST

Probably my favorite thing (especially in RF&F) is the way that the maneuver table captures the tension of handling a deteriorating command in combat.

At first, everyone is fresh and you're rolling "well handled" and marching briskly along … then the first units start to falter from casualties, but you can still react … then a unit or two breaks from the command, and you can't react as well with the others … then you're flanked and your ranks are ragged and you're just praying every turn that your opponent will break before you do!

It represents the gradual build up to the "tipping point" better than any other system I have played in any era.

Cheers,

Christopher

David Manley17 Jan 2016 6:33 a.m. PST

The previous comments pretty much sum up my positive thoughts on F&F which is my favourite set of ACW land rules by far (before that my no. 1 was the old Terry Wise Airfix set).

I agree the "National Characteristics" thing is a bit broad brush, and the d10 aspect at times a bit annoying. But the simplicity of the rules means that they can easily be "house ruled" away if you wish.

nazrat17 Jan 2016 8:38 a.m. PST

Nothing.

Rogues117 Jan 2016 1:55 p.m. PST

We have had 40+ drunks playing in a game that started at midnight, lots of drinking (including the infamous Georgia Courage rule) and had people still playing out the last of the battle at 6AM. Easy to teach, easy to keep the game moving, and works with almost any size battle. Our go to ACW rules for 2 decades. Thanks Rich.

Personal logo McLaddie Supporting Member of TMP17 Jan 2016 2:08 p.m. PST

Easy to teach, easy to keep the game moving, and works with almost any size battle.

Well, that's three on my list. It is a widely-known set of rules, so it is easy to find players and the system looks good on the table.

roundie18 Jan 2016 10:32 a.m. PST

Just a great set of rules really.

Yellow Admiral Supporting Member of TMP18 Jan 2016 4:07 p.m. PST

We have had 40+ drunks playing in a game that started at midnight, lots of drinking (including the infamous Georgia Courage rule) and had people still playing out the last of the battle at 6AM.
This is how I learned to like F&F. :-)

- Ix

Personal logo ACWBill Supporting Member of TMP18 Jan 2016 4:11 p.m. PST

It beat represents the back and forth, ebb and flow nature of the conflict. When I play Fire & Fury, I can envision myself immersed in the fight. I have never had that feeling with other ACW rules.

AussieAndy Supporting Member of TMP18 Jan 2016 6:58 p.m. PST

We are slow adopters, but we played our first game of F and F about 18 months ago. You can pick holes in any set of rules, but F and F works for us. It just feels and looks right. We've just started on RF and F and we are also very happy with that.

49mountain19 Jan 2016 2:44 p.m. PST

Everything.

AussieAndy Supporting Member of TMP19 Jan 2016 7:36 p.m. PST

We make three modifications to F and F to sort out matters that bothered us.

1. You have to declare what you wish to do before making a command die roll.

2. Only the first rank of supported lines can fire.

3. If a unit which is already disordered gets a further disordered result, then the players rolls a D10 and the unit loses a stand if the die result is 1 – 5.

Works for us.

Personal logo McLaddie Supporting Member of TMP19 Jan 2016 9:35 p.m. PST

It beat [best] represents the back and forth, ebb and flow nature of the conflict. When I play Fire & Fury, I can envision myself immersed in the fight. I have never had that feeling with other ACW rules.

ACWBill:

If you can, I'd be interested in what parts or dynamics of the F&F game mechanics give you that feeling. [Which I think is great… You do know the ACW] A game really works when the mechanics don't 'pop' you out of that immersion with odd events or strange mechanics.
That can be very different from one gamer to another.

Yellow Admiral Supporting Member of TMP20 Jan 2016 4:08 p.m. PST

I'd be interested to hear what ACWBill has to say, too.

It [best] represents the back and forth, ebb and flow nature of the conflict. When I play Fire & Fury, I can envision myself immersed in the fight.
This is one of the things I have always liked about it, too. My personal opinion is that this is because F&F has a good balance between simulation and abstraction, does it using a lot of familiar mechanisms, and has a measured pace of damage accrual. It takes very little time to learn F&F because the basics are fundamentally similar to most horse & musket games ever written, and the streamlined mechanics take very little mental processing to figure out how to do what you want to do, leaving the brain is free to concentrate on tactics instead of mechanics. The rate of damage helps units stick around long enough to do a few things before exhaustion grinds them to a halt, which makes it possible to develop a battle through a lot of back & forth beyond first contact.

Unlike ACWBill, I do get this same immersive experience from some other games, even games with mechanics that grate on my nerves (e.g. Volley & Bayonet).

Interestingly, it took a bunch of games of Regimental Fire & Fury to get this feeling, and it's still elusive. RF&F takes a lot more mental processing, so it isn't as easy to "fall into" the game.

- Ix

uglyfatbloke22 Jan 2016 3:06 p.m. PST

The scenario books – we've had lots of good games out of them

dantheman Supporting Member of TMP22 Jan 2016 5:08 p.m. PST

Easy Rules to learn
Game flows with no fits and starts
Command and control system simplifies to a chart die roll
Good randomness in combat die rolls
Visually appealing

Personal logo ACWBill Supporting Member of TMP26 Jan 2016 1:42 p.m. PST

I get that feeling from several major elements of the rules.

1.) Troops don't always go when and where you want them to go.
2.) A small, enthusiastic and "lucky" unit sometimes runs off a much bigger one. (20th Maine at Gettysburg or the Confederates in the morning assaults at Shiloh and Cedar Creek.)
3.) Game flow allows for the arrival of fresh troops to change the scope of the battle. This is what I mean by "ebb and flow". I read a lot of ACW history. When I read that narrative, I get this same feeling.
4.) The large number of bases and figures in F & F, both regimental and brigade, gives me the same grand scale of battle I can see in my mind's eye when I read accounts of the actual fight.
5.) Having written over 20 F&F scenarios over the years, I find it easy to use special scenario rules to give the scenario at least the possibility of an historical outcome.
6.) The final reason is more abstract. Fire & Fury is almost like a second language to me. I told that to a fellow gamer at a convention several years ago, and they strongly agreed.

I know its all a matter of preference and opinion. These are simply mine.

Personal logo McLaddie Supporting Member of TMP28 Jan 2016 2:10 p.m. PST

ACWBill:

Thanks! I appreciate the time you took to answer. Kind of what dantheman wrote just above you, but with intriguing differences… or more specifics.

cw3hamilton28 Jan 2016 5:16 p.m. PST

What (AC)Bill Moreno said!

Best, Lowell

Personal logo McLaddie Supporting Member of TMP29 Jan 2016 12:19 p.m. PST

This is what I am interested in at the moment: How game rules "represents the back and forth, ebb and flow nature of the conflict. When I play Fire & Fury, I can envision myself immersed in the fight."

All simulations are guided pretending in some point [pretending that an artificial system represents something else], which means that a wargame "representing" something of a battle is what it does for the player--in his head--because that is where the connection between little toy soldiers and actual military history is made.

So, how do game rules support that? Why would F&F succeed for more gamers than many other ACW rules.

gregoryk Inactive Member16 Feb 2016 6:17 p.m. PST

I must admit to being a loner who is not the biggest fan of F&F, I think there are other regimental rules that do as good or better job of modeling combat. And the all important C3I.

Amonte Inactive Member17 Feb 2016 3:44 p.m. PST

I am starting out ACW having been in Napoleonic's for years.Bought a 6mm starter army but don't know what rules to use.

Few questions….

How many morale grades is there?
How do you base units?
What is the tactical unit? Company? Regiment? Brigade?
Where do I buy it in UK?!

thanks

cw3hamilton17 Feb 2016 4:40 p.m. PST

Hi Amonte, 17 February 2016

There are two levels of Fire & Fury rules. The orginial FIRE & FURY rule set was published in 1990 and uses the brigade and battery as the basic maneuver elements. All of the major ACW battles can be fought with these rules using Army, Corps, Division and Artillery Brigade or Artillery Battalion organizations that mirror the historic numbers. Two scales are used, depending on the size of your armies and/or the size of the battle you are modeling:

(1) 1"= 45 yards; 1 stand of infantry or cavalry = 150 men; 1 stand of artillery = 6 guns OR
(2) 1"= 60 yards; 1 stand of infantry or cavalry = 200 men; 1 stand of artillery = 8 guns.

We are working on a 2nd Edition (25th Anniversary Edition) of the orginal FIRE & FURY rules. We are calling it BRIGADE FIRE & FURY--clever,huh;-) Anyway, it will be a major overhaul of the 1990 rules. The Battle of Atlanta will be play tested twice at Cold Wars on 18 & 19 March using these new rules. If you cross the "Big Pond", I'll see to it you get in the game.

The other rule set, REGIMENTAL FIRE & FURY, was published in 2010 and uses the regiment and battery (4 or 6 guns) as the basic maneuver elements. The smaller battles or a small portion of major ACW battles can be modeled. One scale is used:

(1) 1"= 25 yards; 1 stand of infantry or cavalry = 40 men; 1 stand of artillery = a 2 gun section of 40 cannoneers.

I'd love to answer all of your questions but I need to know what level of scale you want to model.

Best, Lowell

P.S. I model ACW with 6mm Baccus miniatures. A great scale to use with Brigade or Regimental Fire & Fury because the basing is the same for both systems. You did good.

Regulars18 Feb 2016 6:24 p.m. PST

Cavalier Books is the UK dealer and On Military Matters is the US.
To add to Lowels comments on basing the main requirement is that the frontage lines up equally so if you use a slightly different size you do not have to rebase.
Best
Joel

Amonte Inactive Member19 Feb 2016 2:35 p.m. PST

Thanks Lowell,

I come from a background of Napoleonic Wargaming, Empire rules, WRG rules, Blucher and Lasalle.

I like the idea of a larger formation rule set but honestly am not too bothered as I also love playing lower tactical levels too, regiment/battalion.

We are limited with having a 6 by 4 board (it can stretch to 8 by 4) but gets tight! So hence going for smaller scale as it means aiming for smaller ranges and movement in a way.

I've always loved the ACW period, tragic war but fascinating.

So for a rule set, I've read a lot of positives about fire and fury so just trying to get an idea if it is the way to go as I've heard mixed things about the rules that come with the starter set (Polemos?).

I'm getting off the topic too which was 5 best things about F & F so apologise.

Does it represent troop classes well? I like the idea of raw but enthusiastic troops and veterans who are less keen on re-running a Fredericksburg.

kind regards

cw3hamilton19 Feb 2016 6:17 p.m. PST

Hi Amonte, 17 February 2016

"How many morale grades is there?"
The 2nd edition BF&F has 4 Combat Experience ratings for a brigade or battery
Green -1 modifier applied to maneuver, fire & charge
Experienced +0 modifier applied to maneuver & charge
Veteran +1 modifier applied to maneuver & charge
Crack +2 modifier applied to maneuver & charge
Note that the maneuver phase is where the unit's morale check is made with a single D10.

Leaders have 3 ratings
Exceptional Brigadier +1 for maneuver
Average Leader +1 for maneuver, +2 for maneuver if attached
Exceptional Leader +2 for maneuver, +3 for maneuver if attached
All leaders +1 for charge if attached to a brigade

A brigade has one of four Unit Effectiveness ratings (artillery does not have this rating)
Spirited 10-7-4 [(10 =Fresh +2)--(7=Worn +0)--(Spent=4 -2)]
Reliable 10-8-5 [(10 =Fresh +2)--(8=Worn +0)--(Spent=5 -2)]
Unreliable 10-9-7 [(10 =Fresh +2)--(9=Worn +0)--(7=Spent -2)]
Dispirited 10-//-9 [(10 =Fresh +2)--(//=Worn +0)--(Spent=9 -2)]
Each miniature stand = 150 men using the 150 scale so a 1,500 man brigade would start the game with 10 stands.

Casualties are taken by stand and as the brigade suffers casualties it goes from
Fresh (+2 modifier applied to maneuver & charge) to
Worn (+0 modifier applied to maneuver & charge) and finally to
Spent (-2 modifier applied to maneuver & charge)
Note that a 1,500 man Spirited brigade starts Fresh with 10 stands, when it has 7 stands remaining, it becomes Worn and becomes Spent when it has 4 or less stands remaining. A Dispirited 1,500 man brigade also starts with 10 stands but when it loses just 1 stands, it skips Worn and goes to Spent with 9 or less stands. YIKES!

As you can see, you have many options to rate your armies. All the RF&F scenario books do this for you but you can design your own scenarios and rate your forces to reflect the brigade's historical performance.

The Regimental Fire & Fury rule set has the same system for morale grades but they are titled slightly different
Green -1 modifier are applied to maneuver, fire & charge
Trained +0 modifier are applied to maneuver & charge
Veteran +1 modifier are applied to maneuver & charge
Crack +2 modifier are applied to maneuver & charge

Leaders have 4 ratings
Brave Colonel +1 (modifier for maneuver)
Poor -1 (modifier for maneuver)
Able +0 (modifier for maneuver)
Gallant +1 (modifier for maneuver)
All leaders +1 for charge if attached to a regiment

A regiment has one of three Unit Effectiveness ratings (artillery does not have this rating)
Spirited 10-7-4 [(10 =Fresh +2)--(7=Worn +0)--(Spent=4 -2)]
Reliable 10-8-5 [(10 =Fresh +2)--(8=Worn +0)--(Spent=5 -2)]
Unreliable 10-9-7 [(10 =Fresh +2)--(9=Worn +0)--(7=Spent -2)]
The Fresh, Worn and Spent modifiers are the same as the Brigade rule set.

"How do you base units?"
See above post

"What is the tactical unit? Company? Regiment? Brigade?"
See above post

"Where do I buy it in UK?!"
See above post You can also order direct from fireandfury.com

"We are limited with having a 6 by 4 board (it can stretch to 8 by 4) but gets tight! So hence going for smaller scale as it means aiming for smaller ranges and movement in a way."
The scenarios in both F&F rule books and scenario books are for 15mm scale. But, a 6mm scale reduces the table size by 75% so the average 15mm table of 5' X 7' becomes 3.75' X 5.25' for 6mm gaming. The Quick Reference Sheets for various scales are on the F&F website and downloadable for free at fireandfury.com There is one for 6mm, I insisted;-)

The 2nd edition BF&F and RF&F use the same basic game system while the RF&F goes into more detail for weapon types and modifiers but the basing size is the same, they just represent different numbers of men (40, 150 or 200 per stand).

You can have the best of both systems. Game regimental with your 6mm miniatures for the small actions or portions of a large action or game brigade with your same 6mm miniatures for those large battles using the brigade rules. Is a Win--Win situation.

If you have more questions, just ask.

Best, Lowell

Amonte Inactive Member21 Feb 2016 4:12 p.m. PST

Much appreciated Lowell.

Ordered it (RF&F) tonight after watching my hockey team get thumped, needed cheering up so treated myself!

Hopefully I will add my own 5 reasons I like it soon.

Very much fancy the brigade one too but will wait until your 2nd ed. comes out.

Amonte Inactive Member24 Feb 2016 2:41 p.m. PST

Ah, Lowell,

sorry about this but one last question! Got my RF&F rules, what a great looking rule book!

Anyway, as you use 6mm… how did you base your figs? I don't think I should do two ranks on a single base as that makes it look like 4 ranks for a normal line.

Did you do 1 rank for extended so that when in normal line it looks like two ranks?

Apologies to other posters for off topic, tried searching this and don't see any PM option!

cw3hamilton24 Feb 2016 5:21 p.m. PST

Hi Amonte, 24 February 2016

Thanks for the compliment! Rich is the professional graphic artist that formated and illustrated the rules. He is the master of the Regimental Fire & Fury rule set and design.

Baccus 6mm infantry comes with four figures in a rank as a single-unseparated-casting. The guns and crewmen are separated. The cavalry come in a single file of three or four mounted figures per casting and the dismounted come as separate figures. My basing recommendations are:

I use Litko bases--wood, magnetic, flex-steel--and each are pre-cut to order. I swear by them. The ground scale for my basing system is 1" = 36.6 yards or 1' = 440 yards or 4' = 1 mile.

Infantry: 20mmW X 15mmD, 4 figures in close order and single rank per stand, same for regiment command stand

Artillery Section: 20mm X 20mm, 4 crewmen around the gun
Limber, Foot Guns: 20mmW X 40 mmD, 4 horses
Limber, Horse Guns: 20mmW X 60 mmD, 6 horses

Cavalry (Mounted): 40mmW X 20 mmD, 4 mounted figures in close order and single rank per stand
Cavalry (Dismounted): 40mmW X 20 mmD, 4 skirmishers in open order and single staggered rank per stand
Horse Holders: 40mmW X 25 mmD, 4 horses and 1 horse-holder per stand

Brave Colonel/Artillery Leader: 20mm circle, 1 mounted or dismounted figure
Brigade Commander: 30mm circle, 1 leader and 1 guidon figure, both mounted
Division Commander: 30mm circle, 1 leader, 1 staff officer and 1 guidon figure, all mounted
Corps Commander: 40mm circle, 1 leader, 2 staff officers and 1 guidon figure, all mounted
Army Commander: 40mm circle, 1 leader, 3 staff officers and 1 guidon figure, all mounted

Hope this helps.

Best, Lowell

Amonte Inactive Member18 Mar 2016 5:11 p.m. PST

Took a while to get armies painted and based up but had first RF&F game tonight and although I've read the rules over a few times now, my son had not played them, picked them up or seen them till he sat down at the board.

I like the way the unit ratings work with training and morale.

I like the fire point system

At first I was a bit miffed at having to have so much stands to represent even average size regiments but I really like how it looks on the board. Lines look like lines…(which is silly as 30-40 figures still looks nothing like 300 but is better than 10 or 12!!)

We are playing again tomorrow.

Are there rules for skirmishers? I see extended line but that does not seem to be like skirmishing.

Weasel18 Mar 2016 9:36 p.m. PST

From what I recall (and unless it changed in the later version), skirmishers are abstracted into the parent unit.

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