"TAKING SIDES: King John v the Barons (1215-1217)" Topic
4 Posts
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Tango01 | 15 Jan 2016 10:40 p.m. PST |
"Magna Carta has been much hyped this anniversary year. Underlying the hype is an unreconstructed ‘Whig' interpretation of history: the idea that political freedom and civil liberties arise from incremental constitutional reform over the centuries. This is nonsense. And it violates a basic rule of historical reasoning, which is that contemporary context must determine contemporary significance. The idea that the English barons – a class of alien landlords and military thugs – were waging a struggle for freedom is laughable in the context of the early 13th century. What they were actually doing was seizing a moment when the monarchy was weak to reassert their feudal power. The effect was to shift authority from the king in London to the local baron in his castle. Though the barons sought support from the burghers and merchants, there was no sense at all in which this embryonic ‘middle class' experienced either social or political advancement through the provisions of Magna Carta…" See here link Amicalement Armand |
RavenscraftCybernetics | 16 Jan 2016 9:51 a.m. PST |
It is a grievance list, not really a set of rules for governing. |
jowady | 16 Jan 2016 11:05 a.m. PST |
The Magna Carta and other such documents at the time must be viewed as a beginning, not an end. Were the Barons interested in Freedom? Well, for themselves to a degree. But it is the beginning of British/English political thought that in many ways will culminate in the American Revolution. As an aside I find the declaration that "this is nonsense" and that it violates some sort of historical rule to be in and of itself nonsensical. The movement by which England eventually became a Constitutional Monarchy must be viewed not just in contemporaneous effects of documents or action or theories but in what is eventually built upon those. To say that "this is nonsense" is to demonstrate a complete misunderstanding of political science and the evolution of historic and political theory and thought. The idea that there is some sort of "historic rulebook" is also pretty silly. |
Goonfighter | 16 Jan 2016 11:56 a.m. PST |
I don't think the barons were thinking "this is the start of a long march to constitutional monarchy and democracy"; they were probably thinking "how can we stop this maniac slinging my daughters in cells until I cough up a few extra taxes to keep him in lampreys". And I very much doubt they extertained any idea of extending any kind of "freedom" to the various peasants and villeins etc |
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