Green Tiger | 13 Jan 2016 5:31 a.m. PST |
Is it considered the done thing to criticise new figures that are released? It seems rude and mean to criticise the efforts of others but are we as a hobby more likely to get the figures we want if we tell companies when we don't like their products? |
MajorB | 13 Jan 2016 5:43 a.m. PST |
Depends what the criticisms are about. If they are constructive, such as highlighting historical inaccuracies then hopefully the manufacturer will take not and correct it in future releases. If it is just general carping about style then it's not very helpful. OTOH, there's an old adage about "catching someone doing something right". |
nazrat | 13 Jan 2016 6:38 a.m. PST |
It depends on how you phrase the criticism. Any time you announce a release of models and people can see the pictures there will always be some who don't like them (for whatever reason) and they have every right to say why. If it's done with a sneering disgust (as you see in many GW and FoW threads) it is indeed rude. Many folks seem to think that that is okay with the "Big Boys" of the manufacturers. On the other hand I really doubt that a few grousers will ever stop anybody from producing models of any type and if their feelings are that easily hurt then they should probably find other professions. Working with and around the Public requires a tougher hide-- I have drawn caricatures at parties for almost 30 years and there have been a number of times that some wag has stood right behind me and said horrible things about my work. All that has ever given me is a number of good stories to tell about the idiots… 8)= |
Green Tiger | 13 Jan 2016 6:54 a.m. PST |
MajorB – it would have been general carping about style – anatomy is my major bugbear- My initial reaction to most recent releases is "My, what big hands you've got…" or "Is that even anatomically possible?" – if you don't think it would stop the perpetrators (and I'm sure you are right) It is probably best to keep my opinions (and my hard earned cash) to my self and hope that one day someone will see sense… |
Joes Shop | 13 Jan 2016 6:54 a.m. PST |
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Martin Rapier | 13 Jan 2016 7:31 a.m. PST |
The only real way we are going to get the figures we want is to not buy the ones we hate. It is certainly possible to criticise some figures, but there will be some people who like them and will leap to their defence whatever. Some manufacturers are more receptive to criticism than others as well. But as long as they continue to sell, they'll go on getting made. |
Yesthatphil | 13 Jan 2016 7:46 a.m. PST |
Yes – only buy what you like … only praise what you genuinely admire … and comment intelligently on the historical details Phil |
Russ Lockwood | 13 Jan 2016 7:53 a.m. PST |
I believe it was Mark Twain that said something to the effect that: "20% of the people hate everything." So, no matter what is released, expect 20% of the folks to complain about something. And that's OK, because the trick, as a manufacturer or publisher, is to sift through the complaints to find the constructive criticism that can help you make a better product and to use the complaint to open a discussion on *why* something was done this way instead of that. Of course, some things are just not going to be changed. For example, rules can be changed with posted errata, and cards can also be posted, with the player creating new ones easily enough. But a model mold is unlikely to be changed until it wears out, or a map of a boardgame unlikely to be changed until a reprinting, if then. The pivot point here is that historical items are subject to interpretation of history. Fantasy and sci-fi have to aim to consistency while historicals have to aim for accuracy. Sometimes you have great accuracy, like photos and actual objects. Othertimes, you have cursory written descriptions open to interpretation. Photos, reviews, and postings provide the feedback buyers need, preferably something more erudite than 'this sucks' or 'good game.' Sales numbers provide the feedback manufacturers and publishers need. The process has fits and starts, but it all chugs along and we have many more choices today than a generation ago and many more people willing to offer something new. And that, I believe, is a good thing. |
etotheipi | 13 Jan 2016 8:06 a.m. PST |
it would have been general carping about style – anatomy is my major bugbear I think there are non carping ways to bring up the point in a constructive way. "This proportioning on this figures hands put it in the heroic over-the-top category (or cartoony, chibi, etc.), while the rest seems to be more gritty, realistic scifi vibe." would be a useful criticism that could provide info for a manufacturer to evaluate and then decide how or even whether to react. I feel following up with "I don't personally like heroic proportioning (unrealistically large weapons, unnecessarily nekkid women, etc.)." is appropriate. If you can separate your critique from your opinions, then having a feel for the preferences of the public at large is also useful to a manufacturer and not inappropriate. If a manufacturer is to survive, they will have to know the difference between anecdote, trends, selection bias, and market research with respect to their decision making. "Those hands look like and what would you expect from this bunch of s?!?!?!" is entirely a different thing. |
Green Tiger | 13 Jan 2016 8:18 a.m. PST |
etotheipi: You may be assured that I would have passed on my criticism in the most polite and discrete manner possible. Martin (and others) is there not a danger though if we merely don't buy these figures that the producer may think that the problem lies elsewhere (say choice of subject) and will continue producing garden gnome based figures in the hope that someone will buy them? In the meantime we, the buying public, are giving no indication of what we DO want? |
rampantlion | 13 Jan 2016 8:55 a.m. PST |
I think constructive criticism is fine, and even beneficial at times, but to be critical and mean spirited for no good reason is not good form in my opinion. I am going to be on the receiving end soon as I am about to release my first rules, so we'll see if I am any good at taking criticism…even constructive. |
Mike Bravo Miniatures | 13 Jan 2016 9:23 a.m. PST |
Personally I value the input, ideally constructive criticism ("it shouldn't be like that, it should be like this…") but to an extent the "that's rubbish" can have its uses if there's a deluge of such comments. What I find most disconcerting is when you don't get any responses at all… Are they ok? Are they rubbish? I do and will continue to pop up pics of most of our greens before they get anywhere near production mostly in the hope that someone spots an issue that I've missed. It's led to minor corrections in detail and some changed proportions on at least one figure that I can think of. Naturally if the criticism is bad I'd prefer it to be 'offline' but to be honest even if it's public it's interesting watching feedback develop and to see what others think. Simply not buying a given product won't see a better product being released. At best it'll just lead to that line going nowhere (the "it must be the subject matter" conclusion) and either a different set of 'not nice' figures being produced or maybe even the manufacturer thinking 'sod this for a game of soldiers'. I think you can generally spot when someone is moaning for moaning's sake and the beauty of the web is you can just ignore a post or delete an email. So I'd say don't hold back from coming forward. |
Heisler | 13 Jan 2016 10:44 a.m. PST |
As a side note Eric is involved in gaming and painting again and is working with Antimatter Games. I'm not sure of what his involvement (owner, partner or what) is but he wrote a painting guide for them and I recognize is paint work in the forums there. |
Ottoathome | 13 Jan 2016 11:25 a.m. PST |
A manufacturer produces figures for sale. The only reliable criticism is if they sell or not. Types of artistic interpretation and representation are more selective and personal and will depend on GENERALLY adherence to certain standards, like human anatomy. I prefer the classic Stadden-Suren- Dayton Painting consortium for my figure style, svelte human proportions. I dislike front rank intensely for what I call fat bulbous squat figures. That's taste, A lot of people like them. Manufacturers need only care about sales, and that will tell them if their figures are good or not. On the other hand, someone putting up a figure they sculpted or painted with the idea of "gee, aren't I great for doing this" must expect some who will disagree. On the other other hand, Nazrat and Russ Lockwood pointed out that 20% of the people will never like anything and will just use the invitation to evaluation (I shall not say criticism) as simply an excuse to be nasty- often with no real reason. It's just pure malice and engendered by people often so dwarfed in imagination and talent that they could never do something like that on their own. As I said there are some manufacturers I like. I spend money on their figures, those that I don't like I don't spend money with. |
Tacitus | 14 Jan 2016 11:20 a.m. PST |
Helpful, constructive criticism can help push the producers to keep improving, making the selection and quality of miniatures better for the hobby. Being mean, however, just sucks. |
olicana | 14 Jan 2016 2:08 p.m. PST |
For those of you who din't recognize the name, Eric was the founder of Dragonblood minis. Thankfully, a TMP'er bought the rights to what Eric did and can still produce them. But Eric won't be making any new ones.This is what the hobby lost: link Wow, this one looks so real, except for the hands which are too big.
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axabrax | 15 Jan 2016 10:21 a.m. PST |
I agree that it depends on how the criticism is phrased. Polite, friendly, constructive criticism should be welcomed by anyone. While historical accuracy is an objective thing to be criticized, one also has to realize that aesthetics and style are often subjective, and there really isn't always a right or wrong, so the criticism should be respectful and recognize this. Try not to state ones own opinion as if it's an objective fact. This is especially true when it comes to anatomy and proportions as photographic realism is not always the objective standard when you are dealing with tiny objects and the limitations of the production process make some things hard to do. Miniatures are also an artform and stylized aspects often look cool even if they are not photographically realistic. The notion that it should look like a photo or it's bad is is a naive fallacy. |
Great War Ace | 18 Jan 2016 10:06 a.m. PST |
A certain sculptor of busty, full-fleshed female figures, that appear on this forum and elsewhere (and rightly so) has this tendency to make "the hands too big". And I usually point it out, with my favorite quip about "what Grandpa said". I hope the point is taken as constructive. Anatomy is also my main peeve. Lousy anatomy and posing is so rampant in the industry. I've been waiting for the industry to change itself. But "thanks" to anime that looks like never to happen: rather, it will get worse. If not buying something is supposed to be effective for change, I haven't had the slightest affect upon the industry. And neither will this post. Oh, well…. |
Henry Martini | 18 Jan 2016 2:06 p.m. PST |
There seems to be an unstated general agreement between figure sculptors that figures should be relatively realistically proportioned down to the knees, but that calfs should be only about half-length; very strange indeed. 'Great work' has become a meaningless platitude garnered by anything with paint on it. |
138SquadronRAF | 20 Jan 2016 9:16 a.m. PST |
Is it considered the done thing to criticise new figures that are released? It seems rude and mean to criticise the efforts of others but are we as a hobby more likely to get the figures we want if we tell companies when we don't like their products? Well you can make any comments you like, just be prepared to stand by any consequences of that speech. Some years back, when it was possible to judge your number of stifles mine increased 3 fold for the temerity of suggesting some figures produced by for the game "Flames of War" were less than perfect. The fanboys did not take it well. |