"Papal States armament - mid- to late-19th Century?" Topic
10 Posts
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Saginaw | 11 Jan 2016 8:41 a.m. PST |
Would anyone here know about or where I can find specific information on the armament used by the Papal States from just before the Revolutions of 1848 until their dissolution and incorporation into the Kingdom of Italy in 1870? Presently, I do have scant information on some of what they had. Here's what I know: From an 1873 book entitled The Family Treasury, the Vatican had in storage "six pieces of artillery, somewhat old, but in excellent condition, and duly supplied with ammunition". Also, from the same source, they mention "twelve pieces of rifled artillery, of large La Rochefoucauld calibre, forming the reserve of the Pontifical artillery". I've come to the fuzzy conclusion that all the cannon were French, and that the former were smoothbore. The same source also mentions the storage of "8,000 Snider rifles", "2,000 Remingtons" (which I discovered were more than likely the M1868 Papal States infantry rifle, known as the "Pontificio"), and also "20,000 muskets, 20,000 fire-arms of various kinds", and "400 revolvers". Any help and/or direction is GREATLY appreciated! Thank you! |
Prince Alberts Revenge | 11 Jan 2016 10:12 a.m. PST |
I have a few English language books on the Papal military from this time but I don't recall seeing anything that specific. I will have to take a look at the old Freicorps booklet on the Risorgimento armies. My focus is on the 1860s, I would have guessed that they used older Austrian or French rifled muskets. In this photo, the caption states the zouave is carrying a .71 caliber Model 1842 French rifle:
Hope this helps, if I find anything else, I will let you know. |
Saginaw | 11 Jan 2016 11:43 a.m. PST |
Prince Alberts Revenge, the photo doesn't show up. Is there a url link to it, please? Any help and info you can provide is, again, GREATLY appreciated! Thank you, again. |
Robert Burke | 11 Jan 2016 12:10 p.m. PST |
I've been researching the Papal army of the 1860s for several years (especially the San Patricio battalion and the Battle of Mentana). Unfortunately, I've only come across a few references to the weapons used by the Papal army. But here are some notes I've taken: "The Last Days of Papal Rome, 1850-1870" by R. de Cesare (translated by Helen Zimmern), Boston and New York, Houghton Mifflin Company, 1909. p 272: The Duchess of Parma sent eight cannon, the Duke de La Rochefoucauld sent twelve howitzers made in Belgium. p 280: The Papal army consisted of 16 full battalions and 2 half-battalions, including the garrisons of Ancona and Pesaro, a total of about 11,000 men. Of the foreign battalions, the best trained was the Franco-Belgians (Zouaves). The artillery, drawn by oxen, was antiquated and insufficient. p 395: The French Chassepot rifles fired about 12 rounds per minute (at the Battle of Mentana). The Stutzen carbines of the Pontificals were more murderous. If anyone would like to correspond and exchange information about the Papal Army, you can contact me directly at Burker1 (at) aol (dot) com. |
Prince Alberts Revenge | 11 Jan 2016 12:54 p.m. PST |
Saginaw: My apologies, there is a photo on the Wikipedia page for the papal zouaves: link I thought the Model 1842 was a .69 caliber but may be mistaken. |
Prince Alberts Revenge | 11 Jan 2016 5:34 p.m. PST |
Ok, got a chance to look at the Freicorps booklet "Red Shirts". Line infantry were equipped with a mix of French model 1822 or 42 muskets and in some cases Belgian model 1857 rifled muskets. Chase ruts and zouaves were equipped with model 1857 Mazzocchi rifles carbines of 17.6 mm caliber and made in Rome. Mounted volunteers carried a Lafauchex pistol and sabre. Artillery comprised of French 4" rifled La Hitte field guns, 12lb howitzers, 18lb guns and 4lb mountain howitzers. Hope this helps. |
Saginaw | 12 Jan 2016 10:15 p.m. PST |
Gentlemen, THANK YOU VERY MUCH for your help! In doing some more digging around, I found the following book, which was published in 2011 and looks as though it may have even more information about the Papal States Army and their armament. I also found an online review of it, and some of what's covered corresponds to the answers posted here already: link miwsr.com/2012-008.aspx Robert Burke, I'll be contacting you shortly. Prince Alberts Revenge, I remember those campaign booklets that Freikorps 15 published, as I have two of them. If Red Shirts is still available, I may purchase it. Again, thank you both! |
Robert Burke | 13 Jan 2016 12:14 a.m. PST |
Saginaw, you should check out this book: link |
Prince Alberts Revenge | 13 Jan 2016 7:42 a.m. PST |
Saginaw: I have that Pope's Soldiers book. Its pretty good, as I recall it starts up sometime in the 18th century…I read thru until after 1870 and stopped (as I didn't have interest in the later periods). I can look through it tonight and tell you if there any technical bits regarding equipment. I do recall they had some decent accounts of the campaigns and battles from the mid-19th century. The Pope's Legion is also a very good book, although it seemed a little biased (and I am Catholic). Gives some insight into the smaller skirmishes with Garibaldini and such. The Freicorps booklet is jam-packed with information on the Neapolitans, Garibaldini and Papal forces and to a lesser extent the Piedmontese. Saginaw, if you don't mind me asking…what do you plan to do with the information? What scale/figures are you going with? What rules? I have a half-complete project in 10mm based for Neil Thomas' 19th Century Warfare rules. I have a half-painted Neapolitan lancer unit and Garibaldini infantry battalion on my table as we speak…may need to finish those up. |
Saginaw | 13 Jan 2016 10:49 a.m. PST |
Prince Albert's Revenge, I'm putting together some army lists which I've based from an old set of rules entitled Palo Alto to Peking that was published in 1987. The rules cover the period from 1845 to 1900, and the author amazingly covered many nations and groups in the enclosed army lists. What I'm attempting to do is to include more nations that weren't covered originally, such as the nation-states of Italy and Germany, before their respective unifications. I'd also like to cover the indigenous groups not touched on previously, such as Australia's Aborigines and the Eskimos and Inuits of Alaska (then known as "Russian America"). Robert Burke, that's an interesting book. I'll definitely check it out. |
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