"Battle of Bosworth Questions - Livery/Force Composition" Topic

I hope that this is the right place to post this. I'm currently putting together a retinue for Lion Rampant based on Henry VII force at the Battle of Bosworth. At the moment I have the following -

- 6 man men-at-arms unit led by Rhys ap Thomas
- 12 longbowmen in Rhys ap Thomas and Henry VII livery

I have another 12 man unit of billmen made up but im unsure how to go about painting them. I was thinking of painting them as a mix of Scottish mercenaries and English exiles as part of Talbots command on the right of Henry VII line but I cant find Talbots livery anywhere. Does anyone know what it is or whether or not he would even have men in his livery at the battle?

Also, the Perry Miniatures box of 1450 Mercenaries comes with a french company banner of a knight fighting a dragon, what company would this have been for and would it be accurate enough to have them as another group of billmen representing the French mercenaries in the centre of Henry VIIs force?

Any help is greatly appreciated, I'm used to Napoleonic orders of battles where I can look up every aspect of the force know exactly how they should be painted, the late medieval period is a different beast altogether for me.

another group of billmen representing the French mercenaries in the centre of Henry VIIs force?

The bill was a peculiarly English weapon. French mercenaries would more likely have been armed with the pike. My French mercenaries for Bosworth are pikemen in a simple all-over red livery.

link
Or red rampant lion on white. Simple enough.

Henry VII's troops were all "borrowed". He may have had a handful of indigenous "English" troops, but the actual troops en masse were Welsh and "Continental". I think that you have a pretty free hand in how you paint them, since, as you point out, not enough is known to inarguably paint them "correctly"….

Or red rampant lion on white. Simple enough.

The colours on the escutcheon are not always the same as the livery colours, though in the absence of any further evidence it is a reasonable guess.

In fact livery colours could vary even within the same family:
Thomas Talbot, Viscount Lisle or L'Isle [d.1470] Livery: Blue
John Talbot, 2nd Earl of Shrewsbury [1st d. 1460, 2nd d. 1473] Livery: red and black
Humphrey Talbot [active until at least 1483] Livery: black and white

Sir Gilbert Talbot, KG (1452 – 16 August 1517 or 19 September 1518) was the third son of John Talbot, 2nd Earl of Shrewsbury.
His elder brother John became 3rd Earl, so Gilbert was a junior branch of the family.

His coat of arms:

from:
link

MajorB – Pikes it is, im glad i didnt already paint my billmen as French. Do you have any pictures of your pikemen i could see?

Great War Ace – I should have stated in my original post, I'm looking for Gilbert Talbots livery, if he had one at all that is. I was going to go off of his fathers livery but im avoiding that now after reading MajorBs last post. Is Gilberts livery known at all, did he even have one?

I do have one more question though, the Perry Miniatures mercenaries box comes with a banner for the French that is black and yellow, with a knight fighting a dragon, is this a known mercenary company or just some fluff theyve made up? if theyre known id love to paint some of my pikemen up as them.

In fact livery colours could vary even within the same family…

Liveries are the equivalent of interior decorating for medieval dudes.

Liveries are the equivalent of interior decorating for medieval dudes.

well, I suppose that's one way of putting it …

"french company banner of a knight fighting a dragon"
Does he have wings? That would be St Michael. At least some French companies had that design, with colours changing according to company. See

If no wings, probably St George. I don't know of any French companies which used him, though the Burgundian guard did. See
St George was also used elsewhere, e.g. Hungary.

Just had a look at the banners in my box of Perry Mercenaries and it is indeed the one with wings as in the red banner above. So St Michael (with yellow and black striped wings!) fighting a green dragon on a red banner.

Thanks very much Swampster, one of the ones I was looking for. The perry box has a yellow and black version too that I'm going to use. I'm going to paint my french black/yellow with a white cross, might not be perfectly accurate but will look good i think.

They come from here link