Eclipsing Binaries | 08 Jan 2016 5:52 a.m. PST |
I've kinda almost got my head around the flags for the line Demi-brigades of the 1799/1800 era, and have sources for the Consular Guard and cavalry flags and fanions etc, but the Legere is still a bit of a mystery. I have a few different references but they are contradictory. Can someone help clarify what flags would have been carried by each battalion in a Legere Demi-brigade, specifically for Marengo and the Italian campaign of 1800? Also, which demibrigades at Marengo carried the "Army of Italy" flag variant? Thanks in advance, Ccolin |
42flanker | 08 Jan 2016 6:13 a.m. PST |
Are you familiar with this? 'Les drapeaux des demi-brigades d'infanterie de 1794-1804 O.HOLLANDER 1913 I have only consulted it in relation to one specific unit but perhaps it will be of help. link |
Eclipsing Binaries | 08 Jan 2016 6:30 a.m. PST |
Wow! Now that is useful. Thank you so much. Now to find out how to download that. |
von Winterfeldt | 08 Jan 2016 9:20 a.m. PST |
A colour of infanterie légère is a difficult topic, for sure those in Egypt did have one,proven thanks to one being captured – in Hollander there is a big discussion about this, in my view the non Armée d'Italie units légères had no colour, none was captured – in contrast of plenty of de bataille and de ligne. Colin, in case you need some immages from Hollander drop me a line, any advance with the cavalry standarts?? |
42flanker | 08 Jan 2016 11:25 a.m. PST |
LES DRAPEAUX DES DEMI-BRIGADES DE L'ARMÉE D'EGYPTE DE 1798 "A 1804 A eu juger par les drapeaux qui subsistent aujourd'hui des 9e et 19e demi-brigades de bataille, la plupart des corps de l'armée d'Italie qui entrèrent dans la composition de l'armée d'Orient en 1798, conservèrent les drapeaux qui leur avaient été donnés par Bonaparte. Ceux qui n'en avaient pas en reçurent, soit avant leur départ (1), soit plus tard en Egypte même. Le 22 septembre 1798, anniversaire de la fondation de la Bépublique, la plupart (les corps de l'armée d'Egypte" I believe the incident to which you refer, Von W, is the a capture of a colour from the 21e DB legère on March 21st during the French attack on British positions before Alexandria. For reasons that aren't entirely clear, this colour was said to have been captured from a regiment known as "Napoleon's 'Invincibles'" and dubbed in the press and elsewhere as 'The Invincible Standard.'- which is still found repeated today. It was said to have been taken by Major Stirling of the 42nd Royal Highland Regiment, even though the standard he took was lost in a subsequent cavalry attack. Meanwhile the trophy sent home was that taken, or recovered, by Pte Antoine Lutz of Stuart's 'Foreign' Regiment, but attributed to Major Stirling and the 42nd- whence arose a long-standing controversy. According to Hollander (pp.112-114), the 3d battalion 21st DBL were later said to have taken their standard into the field contrary to standing orders. Subsequently, no DBL carried colours in the field. |
Eclipsing Binaries | 08 Jan 2016 1:49 p.m. PST |
Managed to take a few screen shots from Hollander, which will be useful. The cavalry flags are next to get finished once I clear some other design work. I think it was just the "8" that needed sorted and the single row of pins? |
von Winterfeldt | 09 Jan 2016 1:00 a.m. PST |
@Colin Yes indeed, at the moment I am painting 7YW Prussian regiment Winterfeldt, but the enxt batch will be 8e cavalerie lourde or cuirassiers of about 1793 Perry conversions – standart bearer included Any hint how to download the Hollander? @42flanker Thanks for your observations, I must again look into it, there are more remarks about this topic – also about the non "Egyptian" pattern |
von Winterfeldt | 09 Jan 2016 8:27 a.m. PST |
the complete download is possible, alas only in black and white but when you look at the possibility to just look at each page seperatly the illustrations are in colour |
Eclipsing Binaries | 11 Jan 2016 3:21 a.m. PST |
I've done some new artwork for the Legere flags. How do these look? Would they be suitable for units who fought at Marengo?
Also, for Von Winterfeldt, how do these look for the 8th cavalry?
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von Winterfeldt | 11 Jan 2016 5:57 a.m. PST |
The top colour was certainly not used in 1800 already, s for the cavalry standarts, yes they look good – don't forget to take into account the wrap around material for the standart pole – I actually like both versions the fleur de lys style and then the purge of royal emblems. |
Eclipsing Binaries | 11 Jan 2016 6:40 a.m. PST |
Do you know how much wrap-around you need for your figures? So the bottom colour should be ok for 1800? Was there any distinction between battalions, like the Ligne? |
Eclipsing Binaries | 11 Jan 2016 6:52 a.m. PST |
And just confirmed, that top Legere flag is 1802 onwards, which is a shame as I like it. |
Fanch du Leon | 11 Jan 2016 7:48 a.m. PST |
the 1st flag flag has been given to the 24ème brigade légère on 25 Messidor An X that means Monday, July the 13th, 1802, so too late for Marengo. It seems as von Winterfel said, that after the 2nd amalgame the demi brigades légères hadn't flags. The exception being the Armée d'Italie under Bonaparte. |
Eclipsing Binaries | 11 Jan 2016 8:23 a.m. PST |
Yeah, I wasn't sure when An X was when I set up the artwork for that one, and it was wishful thinking that I could use it. I still want to give my Legere units flags in my collection, so I may use the lower design and the Armée d'Italie flag. I'll be putting together 3 battalions of the 24e, 2 battalions of the 19e and 2 battalions of the 6e. |
dibble | 11 Jan 2016 3:00 p.m. PST |
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Eclipsing Binaries | 13 Jan 2016 3:38 a.m. PST |
Thanks Paul, been on there. They are showing the same style flag that I made the mistake with. Again, it says "An X" on the flag they are saying is a Revolutionary era flag from the late 1790s. |
Valmy92 | 13 Jan 2016 4:39 a.m. PST |
The only additional thought I had on this is a recollection that at least at the first amalgam the new demi-brigades carried the flag of their parent regular and volunteer battalions until the new issue. I could see a light D-B having a flag from the chasseur battalion and two mismatched volunteer flags at that point, and suspect that with no new issue ever they would likely have worn out by Marengo. I've been contemplating going down that path with mine. There's very little information out there about specific flags carried by specific volunteer units out there. For mine I've just pulled known volunteer flags and stuck them on whatever units I needed them for, can't read most inscriptions at 15mm anyway. btw, Eclipsing Binaries your blog is inspiring. Phil |
von Winterfeldt | 13 Jan 2016 5:05 a.m. PST |
The big problem starts with the amalgamations, who knows what colours were still carried and what colour did replace the old ones and was it ever distributed? This mostly due to the 2nd amalgamation of 1796, sometimes up to five and more units were used to form the "new" demi brigade and none of them had a colour with the matching number of the new demi brigade, so what old colour did they retain and use and was the colour with the approbriate number even issued to them? The Italian pattern colours come up – after the 1st Italian campaign and most demi brigades got them for Egypt and were modified in Egypt as well. As for the cavalry standards – Colin, have a look how GMB Colours are doing their pattern for leaving extra "paper" for the wrap around the pole, technically also the pins are on the side of the polse – so on each side one dense row of pins, look at the immages I did sent, maybe a trial with a cocktail stick, or spear would do the trick to figure out the make a guess at the required material. |
Valmy92 | 13 Jan 2016 6:43 a.m. PST |
I've revised my thinking a bit on what I'm going to do with the legere I have in process right now. (coincidentally enough, the 24th) What I've done with a couple of line regiments is paint from the Austerlitz IV Corps OB and include an extra stand with a revolutionary era flag so I can backdate them for a Marengo or Hohenlinden era game. This doesn't really work for the legere I have (AB early) The shako they (including standard bearer) are wearing wasn't authorized until 1801 so doesn't make Marengo anyway. I may use the 1802 flag for them because at least it has the revolutionary era iconography. Sadly nobody ever fought a battle under that flag. Must ponder some more. Colin, what figures are you using for legere at Marengo since that's your primary focus battle? Phil |
von Winterfeldt | 13 Jan 2016 9:19 a.m. PST |
" I may use the 1802 flag for them because at least it has the revolutionary era iconography. Sadly nobody ever fought a battle under that flag. Must ponder some more." There is a big argument that the Imcomperable – 9e légère did carry their unique colour – outside any colour scheme – given to them by Napoleon well into the Napoleonic period based on the description of the colour / eagle / part of the egale – loss at Mohrungen in 1807 |
Eclipsing Binaries | 13 Jan 2016 9:22 a.m. PST |
Phil, I'm not. Yet. I'm hoping that they will become available soon. Dermot at Campaign Games Miniatures has just started his Early French and his Line are really nice. I'm half way through a demi-brigade of his figures and they paint up nice. I would have used his Consular Guard but already have those using Warmodelling, although those have too short coat tails. Hopefully he'll do the legere in mirlitons at some point and I'll be using those. I did get a battalion of Blue Moon early legere in shakos, and they are nice figures as well. I'm going to use those as Legion Italique, who apparently wore Shako at the time of Marengo (although they didn't make it to the battle). |
von Winterfeldt | 13 Jan 2016 2:36 p.m. PST |
could be that some leger units had already a shako seemingly a bit lower that that of the early empire, I don't think they did at this time still wore hussar style mirlitons. |