"I'm sick and tired of the status of the Host........." Topic

What is wrong with all of us, just leave they wouldn't have a leg to stand on if we broke the contract. There are plenty of places to go to. Anyone check out the Meadowlands Expo Center. Looks great 15 Hotels 6 of which are walking distance, 21 restaurants in the loop right off 95 train 5 minutes away airport 10 minutes away free parking and plenty to do in the area. The location would draw many of our New England members back and just think of all the day trippers for the dealers. Clean modern facility run by professionals we all need to wake up.

New Jersey is notorious for sending around tax collectors to toy soldiers shows. I used to do a show in the Rothman Center in Hackensack, NJ. One year, the sales tax guys showed up and began to confiscate the vendors goods unless you had a tax certificate. Then they charged an "estimated" tax based on the presumption that you would sell every item that you brought with you.

I had the paperwork, but several friends got hammered. One poor guy from Florida, who was just selling his private collection, had his van impounded until he paid up.
I stopped going to the show because of that.

Not sure how that would play at the flea market.

Nevin my folks were there too Ed & La Verne from Gettysburg Toy Soldiers. Just a thought.

What about costs? A prime location such as you describe would probably cost considerably more than the Host. We vendors can't absorb any more of the costs (at least I certainly can't) so they would have to increase the cost of the tickets significantly.

Right, cheap (as opposed to economical) is always better…

How about you go with reasonable quality and see if you lose enough attendees to make it clear how cheap we war gamers are?

I'm just pointing out that cost is a factor. Right now HMGS members who pre-register are paying $20.00 USD for the weekend. This is ridiculously cheap for any convention. People attending conventions at 'high-quality' venues typically pay $100.00 USD or more for a weekend pass.

Millercop;

At the risk of sounding, shall we say, "rude"….
May I say the following:

1: You say "There are plenty of places to go to". And then you name one. "One" is not "plenty". Please list some others.

2: The one you then list you ask if "anyone has checked it out". Why don't you check it out and get back to us and HMGS?

3: Can you guarantee "All the day trippers" would be there for the dealers?

4: What about the costs? One of the things you seem to completely ignore is that The Host kind of made it's money on room sales, as well as the convention contract.

5: What is "walking distance"? In some of our previous arguments errr…I mean discussions about FCC some of the people were angry that they had to walk across a parking lot. Others were angry that there wasn't MORE food choices within spitting distance…etc… Seems that many of the arguments that were against the FCC, are now suddenly in favor of this spot.

Or…

Could it be the fact that you simply don't want to get a room and instead want to be one of those "day trippers", and since you are in New Jersey it's no big deal for you but screw everyone else?

Or I will just simply ask this…

Why do you have such a hard on to move a convention to New Jersey?

Not trying to be rude, but damn dude…you don't like Historicon at FCC…you don't like anything at the Host and the best you can come up with is New Jersey?…Oh wait…that's where you live….I get it now….

Scott:

The cost is relative. Many of us come to put on games – be they pick up or registered, walk around, hit the dealer hall. Maybe play in one or two games. Last I went to Hcon I found that I was only day tripping and between the aggrevation of the traffic, cost of gas and food, and entry fee of $25 USD just to shop – it was no longer worth it to me. It may be there is a difference in your average attendee at Origins and the like vs HMGS cons. In short, it may not be practical to compare entree fees.

Murphy raises a very good point about proximity. When the con was supposed to be at BCC, I had no plans to stay at a hotel since it was so close. The impact of close is – I might only buy a day pass, I might not come back for whatever reason once I go home. Proximity is a two edged sword and can impact revenue for the con and dealers whose fees help pay for the con.

TELL IT MURPHY!!!!!

HG: The cost isn't relative to me. Right now I usually just about break even going to a convention. I don't go to make money, I go to show off my product and to talk to people and to have fun. At the current cost of the tables I can do that without losing money. But if we go to another location that costs twice as much, I can't afford tables that cost twice as much. If they significantly increase the costs to the dealers without significantly increasing the number of customers then I'm out of there. I know some other dealers who would be, too.

First thing wrong with your post which you seem to post every month or so. Who said they want the New England members back? Bad enough we still have New Jersey members showing up. For my friends in New Jersey, you know I love ya! Let loose the dogs of war and cry I want everything for nothing. Beat that drum!

I think HMGS-E should put Millercop in charge of convention venues, with choice to be at his sole discretion. He is obviously so much smarter than anyone else and has all the answers.
Just let us know where to go.

The new HMGS board has been very good about communicating news on the Host as well as frank about looking around for a Plan B. I support their efforts and readily admit they are doing far better than I likely would be at balancing open dialog without over promising prior to locking something down.

There will be open seats and an election in June. Nominations can occur at Cold Wars. If anyone feels they can do better, run for a seat on the Board.

As a native born Pennsylvanian, I've always thought of New Jersey as North Korea but with better beaches and less charm but if the right venue can be had with onsite rooms, I'd attend.

The other big problem, after proximity, is that the overwhelming majority of historical miniatures gamers seem to fall in one of two categories: cheap and ridiculously cheap. We as historical hobbyists whine about weekend costs that equal the daily costs for those attending fantasy conventions; I find it hard to believe that our corner of the hobby is so much poorer than the rest.

I order to go to a better facility the following things would need to happen. Find double or triple the current attendance willing to pay double what we are currently paying. The dealers willing to pay four times as much for their table space. If you have not noticed the tri-state area is not exactly the hot spot for gaming conventions in general, it is just too expensive.

+1 to most of McKinstry's comments.

As much as I enjoy Millercop16, the facts are as follows:

HMGS has contracts with the Host;

the Host is open for business;

the contracts, like most form contracts with hotels, were drafted by the Host. That means all the terms favor the Host, including the cancellation provisions;

HMGS tried to walk away from a contract in the past and paid a hefty price. How quickly some people forget. Fortunately, in this case, cooler heads will prevail.

My own opinion, based on the current situation, is that I expect Cold Wars to take place at the Host, which will be in the same shape that it has always been, more or less. (Note to CW staff: please post the PEL so we have something else to talk about.) I'm even starting to believe that Fall In 2016 will take place at the Host.

We'll see.

My understanding, based on attending membership meetings, is that all the current contracts for HMGS convention locations run through 2017. That is the earliest HMGS can hit the reset button for its convention venues, unless a location ceases operation. HMGS can re-evaluate its needs between now and then. In a way, the proposed sale of the Host was a blessing in disguise for HMGS because now everybody in the organization knows it is time to start thinking about life after the Host.

As far as the comparison of NJ to North Korea, McKinstry, most of today's papers have a story about North Korea testing an H-bomb. While I'm not sure that I want NJ to have nukes, now that you mention it I can see some similarity between Kim Jong-un and NJ Governor Chris Christie.

Here's my take.

1. Bring on the PEL

2. HMGS would be irresponsible not to consider moving FI now instead of waiting for the Host to collapse in on them.

3. I suspect you are right about CW at the Host. I wonder what kind of shape it will be in, both physical plant and staff, considering what is going on there.

4. Shame on the recent past BOD for not being more proactive on what was a clearly deteriorating situation at the Host.

I would just like to see the PEL. If CW is taking place at The Host, things should be moving along at the usual pace.

If it is being moved or not happening at all, then people need to know so they can cancel hotel reservations (not at The Host).

McKinstry, there are many really nice beaches in North Korea.

According to the HMGS yahoo group postings, CW is still moving forward at the Host.

@advocate…..now THAT is funny.

MillerCop, I've known your parents for decades, 1980 or so.
I probably have 4 hundred or so painted Busslers Zouaves that your dad painted years ago.

I know that you know the name DUTKO. Gary was my toy show table partner for many, many years.

Shoot me an Email at nevinsrip@aol.com
if you wish to discuss.

Hmmm…… I know the name Dutko and the gent involved. I dated his niece for years. She told me about him. But I lived to far away to ever visit.

Wow, another reason to avoid NJ, as if there weren't enough already!

Sorry Millercop, but you couldn't pay me to willingly set foot in NJ.

This is ridiculously cheap for any convention. People attending conventions at 'high-quality' venues typically pay $100.00 USD

Well, add in the factors of gas, dining out for 2 days, and a hotel, I'm not paying $300 USD+ for a 2 day convention that can have very hit or miss games when I game every weekend with the same group of friends for years.

That's the cost of an entire army or more for plenty of systems. If that makes me "cheap" so be it. I can however, see why people who aren't as fortunate to play as often as I can would pay more for a gaming binge.

Some of you people are petty and loathsome creatures. Do I talk about your home that way? Some of you (you know who you are) are Class A jerk offs!

New Jersey salute coming at you!! X2!!

TRU

Mako and TSD are you guys 5 years old? Thats how 5 year olds talk.
Lets keep this discussion on track so it's beneficial to it's readers rather than your state sucks….come on kiddies…

Yeah! Nowhere near as mature as my response!
:)

TRU

Nevinsrip:

I second your point. We did a miniature figure collector show at a place called "The Ukrainian Hall" in the 90's and it was somewhere near Somerset. I don't exactly remember but it was off Route 287.

What I do remember is on Sunday of the show eight NJ tax agents walked through the hall in teams of two each and asked the dealers how they were doing, then they flashed their ID's and demanded checks or cash-money right on the spot. Since I had kept a record of my sales and it had been a lousy show, all I had to pay was about twelve bucks. But many of the other dealers were paying hundreds and more. They even wanted back taxes for years past!

I love the Garden State and there are a lot of great gamers there, but I don't think we will ever go back as a dealer. Maybe as gamers, but not as dealers.

Mako and TSD are you guys 5 years old? Thats how 5 year olds talk.

Well, since this thread was aimed at 5 year olds from the start, I guess its fitting.

Millercop knows there is exactly ZERO chance the con would ever be held right outside NYC, an area with horrid traffic and high prices.

A couple thoughts.

1. Legal issues do not correspond to common sense, and HMGS is in a tough spot. If they move, which seems like a rational decision, they very well might be pursued for a cancellation fee.

2. I've spent 45 of my 52 years in New Jersey, and I was born in beautiful Irvington, which escapes being the nation's murder capital by the simple expedient of having a population too small to make the list. NJ is a very business-unfriendly state and generally a high-cost place to do business. I'm all for CW in NJ if it can work, but I sincerely doubt there is a venue that would work, both in terms of hotel space and also escaping crippling costs and union troubles.

3. I have been very critical of past BoD's but the fact is, there are very, very few options that work well for our specific needs, and one (or fifty) more people coming on here and saying, "why don't they just find a new place" does not change that. Our conventions cannot stand the burden of pricing at more corporate centers, and we need more space than most "cheap" places have to offer. And most cheap places that are big enough don't have the adjoining hotels. This debate has been going on for years for a reason. It is not easy to solve.

Murphy, I will gladly answer all your questions.

1. I will post several other locations for you.

2. I will and have attended expos at this site.

3. No I cannot guarantee that.

4. Don't have definitive numbers.

5. This information is available on the website.

6. I stay on site at all the cons don't daytrip it's always been a weekend away for me.

7. Don't have an agenda just throwing out suggestions. If you read the post I'm sick of the fact we are somewhat in the dark as to the status of the host.

8. As to Historicon being at FCC I have attended all of them. And have enjoyed them.

9. If you have anything else you would like to discuss with me my name is ED MILLER and I will be at Cold Wars wherever it may windup.

Winston Smith, thank you for the endorsement.

Ed Miller

TSD101, Traffic is better than Baltimore and DC we are going through now. As far as prices go I guarantee the rates would be competitive with what we are paying now too.

Its funny how when you mention a change everyone comes out of the woodwork bashing ideas. I guess I'm just a member looking for a better place to stay than what we have now.

"Millercop knows there is exactly ZERO chance the con would ever be held right outside NYC, an area with horrid traffic and high prices."

This statement has ZERO merit. I help run a local convention in dreaded NJ every year. Hotels are less expensive than HC, CW or FI and the food prices are no different. This is not NYC where you are spending several dollars for a hot dog…
Central Jersey traffic is far easier than the DC corridor I can tell you.

So please stop creating distortions based on your own prejudices. It will be difficult enough finding a new home for the conventions.

TRU

NJ Con is held in NJ each year, no idea if the venue is large enough to hold Fall-In or Cold Wars. Prices for it are less then either however since there is no need to sign up for a yearly registration. Same for Barrage Gaming day (which is now turning into 2 days and will most likely keep growing in size). That is held in Maryland and not Jersey and the venue is certainly not large enough for CW or FI but the prices to attend are much lower once again ($10 for a day if I remember correctly).

For anyone that doesn't mind gaming in NJ, visit Fire in the East / NJ Con. It is a great convention run by great people. Held in June. The last few years at the NJ Expo Center.

And no, other than an attendee, I am not affiliated with the convention.

As for CW, I think it is a bit late for the BOD to back out, even if there wouldn't be penalties. I think it will either be at the Host or cancelled altogether.

For attendees, trying to move it to another venue, unless in Lancaster, would be problematic too. In essence you need to start over and see if any of the GMs and vendors that signed up are cancelling do to the location change, you need to notify people of the change (I bet there are some people out there that don't even know about any of this drama). People have to scramble to book rooms (at probably a higher rate due to the proximity of the convention). And then you have to deal with traveling. No matter where it goes it will be farther travel for people from some area of the country.

That doesn't even address the idea of dealing with what would basically be an unknown quantity of a venue. What situation would anyone be walking into? Remember how things changed with Baltimore?

If the convention is being held, vendors still need to have stock ready to roll and people still need to register for the convention. The PEL was supposed to be out on 12/28 and registration opening on 1/11/16. Dates on the website haven't been changed to reflect the delays the issues have caused.

Dynaman: Here are the listed stats for the NJ Expo Center (from their website)

Size/Space:

155,277 square feet total which includes 135,500 square feet of single level exhibit space, and 14,500 square feet of multi-purpose meeting/function space that is connected to the main exhibit floor.

The rest of the space is made up of show producer offices ticket/registration area, administrative offices, and food service facilities.

We can offer a variety of options for dividing the Exhibit Hall. The NJCEC can accommodate more then 700 10′ x 10′ booths or conferences more then 7,500 persons.

The NJCEC Hall has ceilings that are 24 feet to an open beam, and 22′ 6″ to an under beam. The Main Ballroom has a ceiling height of 18 feet and our other conference/meeting spaces have12 feet high ceilings.

One thing to keep in mind about moving to a large facility like the NJ Expo Center is that our convention could in no way fill up such a huge facility. So we would almost certainly be sharing the space with other conventions going on that same weekend. I don't know if that is a good thing or a bad thing, but it is definitely a thing :)

Millercop;

Thank you for your response….all me to reply…

1. Good. I look forward to them.

2. Good for you.

3. Of course you can't. So to make the "think of all the day trippers" claim is well…a hollow claim.

4. That is an important item.

5. No it's not. "Within Walking Distance" doesn't say anything.

6. Good. I stand corrected then.

7. EVERYONE it seems is in "the dark" about The Host, as The Host is the one holding all the cards. The HMGS BOD did put out a pretty informative announcement recently, and for that I am happy. Not much else can be done about it UNTIL "When/IF" The Host decides to tell folks something. Yes you can be sick and tired of it…We all are….

8.

As to Historicon being at FCC I have attended all of them. And have enjoyed them.

So why then all your "Bring it back to the Northeast!" ???

9. Nice to meet you Ed. My name is Michael Murphy and unfortunately due to work requirements I am unable to make CW. I will be making Historicon though….

TSD101: "Sorry Millercop, but you couldn't pay me to willingly set foot in NJ."

Sorry, you don't have to pay to set foot in NJ. But you do have to pay to get OUT of NJ.

Right now I am glad I live in "flyover country" and our cons are small and inexpensive. I am getting to the point that all these "food fights" are moving me to regret ever thinking about attending a major historical convention ever.

Lord love a duck, don't you guys have some miniatures to paint?

Ignore the food fights…, I live in the Midwest and really enjoy our local cons too, but I like Cold Wars and Fall In. Both are worth attending.

"3. Of course you can't. So to make the "think of all the day trippers" claim is well…a hollow claim."

Very easy to make this claim – given the greater density of population in the NE and putting the show back within easy reach of the lost New England contingent. Applies to point 8 as well.

TRU

3 Was not a consideration when we moved south for historicon.

This statement has ZERO merit.

Do I need to quote a director?

One of the key factors in locating the conventions is in an area closest to the densest populations of HMGS membership. Currently this is the Baltimore, MD-Washington, DC area. This is not Ohio, New Jersey, New York, Georgia or any other far reaching State.

The con moving to Secaucus for the Meadowlands Expo Center right across the Hudson from Manhattan would cause just as many problems as Fburg.

New Jersey from Lancaster, considered to be the true epicenter of the membership, would not be "far reaching" by any reasonable definition.
I remember seeing this statement and laughing out loud. Ohio is 11 hours and GA even further. those locations don't belong in the same geographic area.

We need to stop putting so many restrictions on what we want in a facility. Any we find are unlikely to meet our needs quite like the Host did for so many years despite its flaws.

Best we can do is hope CW goes off as planned with minimal disruption and next fix our eyes toward the next phase of this saga. Let's put this regional bickering to bed and let the BOD do their job.
Then judge their choices accordingly.

And please stop dissing my birthplace ok?

TRU