"rawhide muscle cuirass historical or not?" Topic

I am painting some 15mm late roman legionaries by Old Glory and notice that one pose seems to imitate the drawing on page 112 and 113 figure 9 of Armies and Enemies of Imperial Rome by P. Barker. It there states that a rawhide muscle cuirass was used to protect legionaries. I cannot find any other references to this in any of the more recent Osprey books on late Romans. An interesting quandary…

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Short answer: we don't know.

Some later Roman monuments, such as the Arch of Constantine, show soldiers in muscled cuirasses – a couple at

and an earlier one at

Phil Barker, who tended to take artistic representations literally, thought these were actual plate but probably hardened leather rather than metal. Most – not all – scholars would disagree. Some would say it's an artistic convention and real cuirasses were mail or scale.

GurKahn is right. We don't know. I'll go with "not" though. While there is no evidence that the cuirass was hide/leather, there is also no evidence that a cuirass was used at all by legionares. Other than artistic representation of course! Romans admired the Hellenized world. It does not surprise me that many of the figures on the arch would be dressed in hellenistic kit. It does not even make sense to have a muscled leather cuirass. It would not hold the shape well after a time in the elements.

Thanks, I'll try to make the best use of the Old Glory figures I bought as some of this range is usable. Awaiting the reopening of khurasan as their range is looking interesting.

I have some of the Khurasan late Romans, and they are great!

Damon.

Sorry but back in the day, twenty plus years ago friends made muscle cuirasses out of leather and they held their shape for ten years at least with care. one friend boild his in oil and it was rock hard, lasted tens years of weekend use in all elements.

Have looked again at 19th century miniatures and it seems that some of the poses and figures under Byzantines, both Heraclian and Belasarian skutatos as well as some of the cavalry are sporting scale mail. This might actually be more useful than the proper late Romans in that range are. Anyone have experience modeling with these figures?

Try this. Take a piece of rawhide about 7-10mm thick. Boil it in oil. Let dry. Take it to the shooting range and fire some arrows at it. Go check for damage and don't forget to close your jaw afterwards.
While you're at it try a .38 Special wadcutter from 25 meters as well.

Surely hardened leather must compare favourably with stiffened linen (used for many years in Hellenistic armies) for durability.
Having said that, I'm definitely on the side of scale/mail, even though I have quite a few 15mm Late Romans in boiled leather. Once you get them in close order, behind big shields, it's not too noticeable.

'Surely hardened leather must compare favourably with stiffened linen (used for many years in Hellenistic armies) for durability.'

Apparently not there was a load of stuff about it on RAT a few years ago. The multiple layers of glued linen won out every time in reconstructions and trials subsequent.

I'd be with you on the scale/mail though.

….there's no evidence for Hellenistic troops (or anyone else) wearing glued linen armour. Similar to there being no evidence for Romans in boiled leather

It has been fashionable to pooh-pooh actual pictures of legionaries in those cuirasses more recently, but I am pretty uncomfortable with the argument that is essentially that they could not have existed because we, 1500 years later, don't think they could have – despite all those pictures.

Also, every so often research pops up showing that leather/linen etc armour, treated in certain ways, is very hard wearing and – more critically – cheap to produce and repair on campaign. Current fashion is to pooh pooh that too.

But the one thing I know about historical research is that fashionable opinion swings like a pendulum.

Anyways, I have those OG legionaries (bought in the days), you can hardly see the cuirasses once they are tucked behind their huge shields, and the dice don't care – so build 'em and play em and wait for academic opinion to turn again (which it will) :)

Also, if slightly later Byzantine practice is any guide, people in heavier armour were at the front and lighter armour at the back – maybe use them as rear rankers?

"….there's no evidence for Hellenistic troops (or anyone else) wearing glued linen armour. Similar to there being no evidence for Romans in boiled leather"

Its not that simple there is textual evidence for linen armour and pictorial evidence for what might well be linen armour. The question then is was the linen quilted or glued? Reconstructions favour glued.

I'm not aware of textual evidence for Roman boiled leather armour only the pictorial images above that might be boiled leather though most scholars think not.

Is this for a doctoral dissertation, or are we trying to paint a miniature's army for wargaming?
If you have a 15mm Late Roman figure in what appears to be a muscled cuirass, the choices are: bronze/brown, or steel/white. Do what you think is best. We really don't know.

As others have said, we have no 100% certainty one way or another. But I have always liked the look of what I called "Barker Style" legionaries. So those are the figures I tend to use. I guess I'm just a traditionalist that way….

Again as others have stated you would be amazed how tough thick hardened leather can be. I've seen some tests on the material and it is amazingly resilient to weapon blows, especially sword cuts. Make no mistake about it, I'd take my steel plate and mail over leather any day, but properly formed leather armour (not the Hollywood bondage gear style crap) is surprisingly effective.

If they really did use rawhide, then the whole unit would stink, especially in the rain. A friend tried making some rawhide stuff many years ago. It was tough, but it smelt like a dog's dinner. His dogs thought so too!

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H. Russell Robinson tended to mail while noting that is leather was used it would have been treated to harden it.

He also noted that treated leather was nearly as good as metal against cuts but was weaker against thrusts.

I painted my current batch of OG 15 LIR as metal armor considering it as mail. Down the road might see about dimpling the armor to better represent mail.