"Identify British Tank from the Battle of 's-Hertogenbosch" Topic

I am currently in the process of painting 13 Shermans of various makes and models. As I paint the rear of the hull I keep thinking back to the following picture that I first saw in The American Heritage Picture History of World War Two:

A cursory reveiw of the internet history suggests this tank was involved with the British liberation of 's-Hertogenbosch in October 1944 with units of the 53 Infantry Division and 7th Armoured Division participating. Looking at the unit emblems on the rear of the tank, it looks like a unit from the 33rd Armoured Brigade (Hourglass/inverted triangles on the left hull) but the "52" on the right side of the hull is odd as the 33rd used "151"-"154" for its Tactical signs (at least that is what Fortin has in "British Tanks in Normandy"). Any ideas on which unit this is? The hull number looks like "35" to me and the 33rd did use teh large numerals on the tank turrets.

Thanks.

I'd agree with 33rd, but yep that's the wrong AOS marking – 52 was used in armoured divisions (none of whom used turret numbers) and by 27th armoured brigade (who did use turret numbers, but were gone before October) but not by 33rd…. Looking at how crude the 52 is (the 5 looks right, but the 2 is cramped and wonky) I'm tempted to say the AOS marking's been messed with somewhere along the line, either by the crew or even the censor….

B Squadron East Riding Yeomanry, 33rd Armoured Brigade.

Next to it is Mr Van de Sande and his two daughters, escaping from the Lombok area.

From a quick rummage, it looks like they changed AOS markings mid-campaign – early photos show the 17X that I expected, but later ones have the "standard" 50-53 instead, all a bit wonky looking and presumably hand-done rather than neatly stencilled or decalled like the earlier markings.

That was fast! Thanks!

I am still confused though. While the East Riding Yeomanry went to the 33rd when the 27th Armouted Bridgade was disbanded in August, the ERY had "53" as their tactical sign when they were in the 27th. Was this just someone trying to confuse 21st century wargamers, an attempt at OPSEC, or some tired tanker who put on the incorrect numeral? Or did the 33rd have different numerals based on regimental precedence? Thanks again.

I hope the Van de Sande family got away alright.

Dom,

Thanks. You beat my entry!

52 would be right for the ERY in 33rd, assuming a 50-53 scheme – they'd be junior to the Northampton Yeomanry, but senior to 144th RAC.

It's a panzer tank…

Interesting that there's a square troop marker on the back as well.

1 ERY joined 53 (Welsh) Div a couple of days into Operation 'Alan', when they pushed into the city. 5 RIDG and 'B' Sqn, 5 RTR from 7 Armoured Div had been giving close support to 53 Div from the launch of the operation on 22 October.

The rest of 33 Armoured Bde was south of the Zuid-Willems Canal, liberating Schijndel.

wrgmr1, it's a squadron marker rather than a troop marker (diamond = HQ Sqn, triangle = A Sqn, square = B Sqn, circle = C Sqn and solid bar or 'lazy D' = D Sqn).

Re the AoS signs – most independent brigades in NW Europe changed theirs to a standard 50-52 scheme by the end of the war. 33 Armoured Bde seem to have been among the first to change.

If anyone's interested, I have a 's-Hertogenbosch scenario here, though it only covers the first two days of the operation, before 1 ERY got involved: link

Oh and yes, regiments would have to re-paint their AoS signs (and the colour of their squadron signs) when new regiments disrupted the order of seniority. That happened when 4 CLY was disbanded from 22 Armoured Brigade and was replaced by 5 RIDG. 5 RIDG then became the senior regiment, meaning that 1 RTR and 5 RTR had to repaint all their markings, as they'd been displaced from 1st and 2nd to 2nd and 3rd in the pecking order… I love the British Army… :)

Jemima Fawr – Thanks for the additional information and link to the scenario. Lots of opportunities there and yet ANOTHER part of the war I knew nothing about. The mind boggles at just how much I am ignorant of after reading about the conflict for over 40 years.

Thanks everyone for their insight . . . and have a Happy 2016!

Indeed! Aside from Market-Garden and the Ardennes, there is relatively little in print regarding the post-Normandy phase of the war in Europe, though it's a very interesting part of the war to wargame. We did Operation 'Alan' as our Big Bovington Game one year:

link
link

After playing that game, one of our members discovered that his uncle had actually been killed at 's-Hertogenbosch and went there for the 70th anniversary of the battle.

Jemima Fawr – Lovely pictures and a good time had by all. Thanks for posting.

Cheers mate,

Yes, it was a brilliant game and one that we've been dying to return to; continuing from where we left off, into Day 2 of the battle (after a bit of overnight reorganisation) and perhaps further, covering the fighting within the city itself (which was just beyond the end of our table). My co-author, Richard de Ferrars even went to the National Archives and pulled out all the unit war diaries and op orders for all the units and formations involved, up to divisional level, so we've got a stack of information to work from.