TheKing30 | 19 Dec 2015 1:25 p.m. PST |
After looking at two Kickstarters that seem to fail horribly – Winter War Baker Company and All Quiet on the Martian Front (Architects of War). I have to ask – why do we bother to back these? These seem to promise he world, extra minis, etc. then either come through horribly late or not at all. Then to top it off, you have no legal recourse. This seems to be the best scam going. Your opinion? |
Tom Bryant | 19 Dec 2015 1:36 p.m. PST |
It's one way, perhaps the only way to get product out that people would like but won't get made because of the costs. We take the risk that the project might fail, but how is that different than buying a lottery or raffle ticket? The driving force behind both of those activities isn't charity but greed. With Kickstarter and other crowdfunding, we are also helping finance a product line that can continue on after the fund drive is over. |
zippyfusenet | 19 Dec 2015 1:37 p.m. PST |
Both Kickstarters that I participated in were honestly run. One succeeded. One failed to fund, but cost me nothing. The instigator has a couple more successes to his credit. If I like the proposed product, and I have the money, why not take a chance? Especially if the Kicker has a good track record? |
PaulCollins | 19 Dec 2015 1:41 p.m. PST |
So far I've backed two, both on time without problem. I have backed two more that look like they may finish ahead of schedule and they have been very well communicated and up-dated. I only back things that I really think are likely, fit with my current interests, and that don't require me to go beyond my discretionary budget in case they don't succeed. I've not backed a number of ks that I thought looked cool because they did not meet my above criteria. |
Prince Rupert of the Rhine | 19 Dec 2015 1:41 p.m. PST |
I've done one with Ramshackle games (Iron brotherhood)and it was a complete success on time, great product and now they are available to all. Thing is though I think Kickstarter is pretty much a crap shoot. You pay your money you take your chance. |
TheKing30 | 19 Dec 2015 1:45 p.m. PST |
It's one way, perhaps the only way to get product out that people would like but won't get made because of the costs. We take the risk that the project might fail, but how is that different than buying a lottery or raffle ticket I guess the difference is that with lottery tickets, you KNOW it's a game of chance. Allot of people go into Kickstarter believing this is a pre-order. Then look at the Kickstarter from Architects of War – they were selling the Kickstarter stuff without ever shipping some of it to the backers!! The icing on the cake was that Ernie had the nerve to try ANOTHER Kickstarter! I guess this all left a very bad taste in my mouth. |
clibinarium | 19 Dec 2015 2:00 p.m. PST |
You have to read every project carefully, and decide whether the plans add up; do I trust the creator? Is the plan feasible? Is the timeframe realistic? etc. If you back projects without thinking about the risk, then that's not sensible. About 9 percent fail, I think I report published last week found that. Very few are outright scams, but some are. Most failures are through mistake not malice. I've not had one fail on me (yet), but I won't be that surprised if one does; them's the odds. Aeroplanes crash, but we still get on them. Though maybe we wouldn't if 9 per cent did. But your life is a big stake, and a kickstarter is trivial; don't back a kiskstarter with money you don't want to risk. |
DyeHard | 19 Dec 2015 2:12 p.m. PST |
I have been doing the crowd funding for quite a few things. With the full spectrum of results. 1) Got all the rewards, as good or better than expected. 2) Got exactly what was promised 3) Got less or poor quality items 4) Got a full refund after long delay 5) Still waiting. I to was in both KS you point to. And I was very excited about both lines. I pledged 330 pounds for Winter Wars and over $2,500 USD for AQMF. Considering I got very little from AQMF and nothing yet from Winter Wars, I would say I feel pretty burnt. But I suspect I will do many more crowd funded items. Why? Because it is my way to vote economically for things I would like to see. Now ironically (or was it strategically) Others have rushed in to make 28mm Finns. So in some respect, even-though I have not gotten any items for my KS, it still succeeded, as now Finns are on the market. Sad for me, but good for the community. |
Old Glory | 19 Dec 2015 2:31 p.m. PST |
I have posted on another thread about this vey subject. Kickstarter says you are "backing" a project you want to see be born and come to live = a venture. You have no guarantee you will ever receive a thing. It is your risk!! You may desire to see it as pre -sell , however that is not what it is. I really seriously doubt that very few kickstarters that fail are due to some form of fradulent intent anyway. I also believe that the vast majority of people who back a kick starter REALLY do know this and just want to whine when on the rare occasion the ball does not bounce their way and then want to kick and scream and fuss and yell foul? Also heard of people who "invest" in numerous kickstarters, get the discounted figures and then move them on eBay? We have all taken risks in life, sometimes you win,sometimes you lose ----- but if you are an adult, knock the act that you don't get it. Regards Russ Dunaway |
KnightTemplarr | 19 Dec 2015 2:51 p.m. PST |
When you back a Kickstarter you are agreeing to help finance a new business endeavor. There is risk in that and they tell you so. All Quiet was not a complete bomb. I got most everything I pledged at a discount. I wanted the miniatures and didn't really care about the rules. I would like to have everything. I would also like to have seen them become a successful business. You named two Kickstarters that failed and there are others. For tabletop gaming Kickstarter has been fantastic for the market. Zombicide has made millions of dollars and sold even more through stores and customers ended up with a fun game. Bones has made millions of dollars and been a great deal for consumers and stores. Fire and Sword has had two successful that brought it into the English speaking world. Board, RPG, and Card Games have exploded on Kickstarter that has allowed lots of really great games to exist. There is inherent risk in investing in any business and investing in a new business is even riskier. I back Kickstarters that I think are great creative ideas. I want to see those ideas happen. I spend money I can afford to lose. Perfection is the enemy of good. |
Mike Bravo Miniatures | 19 Dec 2015 4:15 p.m. PST |
Of the ones I've backed, it's mainly been because it was an opportunity to get some great figures/vehicles at a fair price, that may not have been made otherwise (or at least not been made as quickly). Eg Empress 'Devil Dogs', the Spectre Moderns, Trenchworx Japanese Tanks. The only one I've been hit hard on has been the Baker Co Winter War KS but, to be frank, we all knew that Gav was promising way, way too much. It's only now I've started commissioning my own figures that I appreciate by quite how much he got carried away with the stretch goals etc. That one was very much 'Most failures are through mistake not malice" and I actually think he will come good eventually. Ainsty has gone public to say that the vehicles are all paid for and it's just a matter of time before they can be produced. Even if all I get is the vehicles in another year, it would still have been stupidly good value. I'm just now more careful to only pick kickstarters with modest ambitions, and/or ones from established companies with the scale and track history to be able to cope with a big success. |
Stosstruppen | 19 Dec 2015 4:42 p.m. PST |
I have had success with all of my Kickstarter type projects. My first was a charity documentary. While it took some time for fulfillment I was not concerned they had good reasons and again it was a charity. The second and third were for albums from bands that I like and those went off without a hitch. The third was for the War & Empire 15mm ancients. That went beautifully. It did take a bit longer than anticipated to fulfill, but I did get my stuff and a few extras too. I was so pleased with it that I have signed on to their Roman Kickstarter that ends next Thursday. The next was for the Hurlbat gladiator arena. That one went well too. The only glitch was that they sent my order and it did not arrive. They resent and that one made it. Odd because I have, only had two packages not arrive in the hundreds of online purchases I have made. This year I have joined three, the one mentioned above, a Miniature Building Authority one, and a third for Dark Age forts. The MBA one, since I purchased buildings they already made, not the ones they were trying to get out, has already arrived. The outpost one has regular updates on the status, and like I said, the Roman one I have no doubt will go off well. It can be a crap shoot if you are dealing with folks that have not done previous KS projects, or even some that have. Personally, I think it is helpful to the hobby to get some of this stuff out there that might not otherwise see the light of day. |
TheKing30 | 19 Dec 2015 4:45 p.m. PST |
Thanks everyone for helping me put this into perspective. I guess I got burnt and I'm a bit annoyed. |
Old Glory | 19 Dec 2015 4:54 p.m. PST |
To be totally honest, Old Glory has been approached by several who have started a Kickstarter who were so horribly upside down by the time they reached us that I seen no way for them to reach their goal without substantial cash investment of their own. None of these seemed to be real happy or running around with loads of cash? Regards Russ Dunaway |
clibinarium | 19 Dec 2015 4:56 p.m. PST |
I suppose miniatures projects are expensive undertakings for often niche subjects, and pre-crowdfunding a company or sole trader had to bite the bullet and take the risk a subject would sell. But that would sometimes lead to half created lines, and the "I can't complete the line if people won't buy the figures" problem for the maker, and the "I won't risk buying the line if it may not be completed" problem for the wargamer. Crowdfunding is a way of spreading that risk, obviously on to the customers though hopefully dispersed enough to be light for any individual. I can see why some customers would be hostile to the transfer of any risk to them, and choose not to participate. Not that the maker risks nothing; they'll still have costs, plus a badly handled project can be fatal to reputation. Also a campaign that fails to get funding tells the creator something useful too; that there's not enough interest in a subject to make it work pursuing. If you did the same project self-funded you might find that out after sinking a lot of money to no end. Or it might tell you that your project won't work in the current configuration. But it might not work out that way; the Winter War project was way too ambitious if studied carefully, but people got excited and bought in, and the more that did the worse the situation got for all involved. |
cherrypicker | 19 Dec 2015 5:09 p.m. PST |
I'm still waiting for my first one to deliver anything, "Conan" it's going to be, or already is late and has cost me over $500 USD with add-ons and postage :-( Jules
|
45thdiv | 19 Dec 2015 5:48 p.m. PST |
I have backed 18. All of them have been delivered. Not on time, but I never expect that. I also am very conservative in who I back. |
Dave Crowell | 19 Dec 2015 5:54 p.m. PST |
I have backed one KS that almost completely failed to deliver, luckilly I wasn't into it for much money. I have backed several others that are months or in at least one case years late on delivery.Progress updates and reasons (excuses) for delay have ranged from good to horrible. I back KS projects when it is a project that might otherwise never be brought to market, or is offering a good insentive to support the project with venture capital when it is going to be brought to market anyway. I am another one who has been disappointed in AQMF. They promised much more than they have been able to deliver on. I have in fact given up on the game because models have been so long delayed. |
Redcurrant | 19 Dec 2015 6:00 p.m. PST |
I have only backed 3 kickstarters: War and Empire 1, which as noted above came in slightly later than thought. However, the organiser kept us well informed with progress, and it was well run and produced some excellent figures for armies that I wanted. War and Empire 2, which is still in the funding stage. Went for this one as I was so pleased with the running and the end product of the previous one. Fulfillment is due in summer 2016. I am looking forward to this one. Conan, because I have always loved the Robert E Howard books. This is running late, and expected to fulfill in 1st and 2nd quarters of 2016. Again the organisers have kept the backers up to date, and shown pictures of the models. If the subject of the kickstarter interests me, and the organiser has a proven track record, then I do not mind pledging towards it, although I am aware that it may be money down the drain if it fails. Steve J |
Stosstruppen | 19 Dec 2015 6:13 p.m. PST |
Russ, Like any other business endeavor there is no replacement for a good plan going in to it. If eventualities are not properly planned for the chances of failure are high no matter how successful the funding may have been. They may have given too much away, not planned for the costs properly, not had any type of contingency, or not had a real business plan at all. If you do your homework there is no reason you can't have a successful KS project. Will you make money on it? Maybe, but it would seem to me that a long term strategy would be the most beneficial when it comes to running a KS project. |
Old Glory | 19 Dec 2015 6:46 p.m. PST |
Stosstruen, Of course all of what you say is so basic and true. However, I am addressing the risk to the backers who have no control or oversight onto whether this is being done? Simple errors such as not getting a signed contract on the cost of production and design that cover a determined period of time can really alter the end costs. Just one of the errors I have seen. Regards Russ Dunaway |
Murphy | 19 Dec 2015 8:23 p.m. PST |
*cough cough* "Ken Whitman" *cough cough* |
Winston Smith | 19 Dec 2015 8:48 p.m. PST |
I don't understand craps. So I don't play craps. I don't understand day trading. So I don't day trade. I don't understand kickstarters. So I wait until it goes into regular production. Seriously, I can't really think of anything I would back. I have all the minis I need. That sounds very strange. I admit it. How would a Kickstarter of Washington ctossing the Delaware work? If I pledge to a certain level, I get the guy vomiting over the side thrown in as a bonus? Next level I get the black volunteer and then the woman? Sorry. I'll wait until I can get the whole crew AND the boat. In one pack. |
thehawk | 19 Dec 2015 10:50 p.m. PST |
It is necessary to continually assess a kickstarter. I signed up for a large boardgame kickstarter. All sounded good before the sign-up period closed, but soon after the style of communications changed. So I bailed out. I believe that the game still hasn't been delivered. I have a lot of experience with buying from IT vendors in my job. And you learn to read the signs. This one had fail written all over it. Apart from the suspect project updates, I got the feeling that the developers were patting themselves on the back and goofing off, for example by attending international expos and producing bubbly gameplay videos. It took months to get my money back with intervention by the crowdfunding company, despite the vendor saying they would refund without question. The vendor also wanted to deduct a hefty fee. Would I invest heavily in a kickstarter again? Only with a reputable, proven company. There are a lot of dodgy kickstarters. There is one currently running that includes product that has already been developed and has been available for purchase for some time. So what are you really funding, just retail sales. And some of the claims they are making are just bs. So anything that sounds off in the slightest way = run for the hills. |
jwebster | 20 Dec 2015 12:35 a.m. PST |
Winston Smith wrote
Seriously, I can't really think of anything I would back. I have all the minis I need. That sounds very strange. I admit it.
I am sure I have more than I need, but not as many as I want :) You are a stronger man than me – I have lots of problems with the "oooh shiny" syndrome and this year has been particularly bad. Most miniature companies are part-time businesses where they may not have the capital to produce a new range of miniatures. For some it is a cheap way to do market research. Let's face it, the market for most miniatures is very small and the margins won't make you a millionaire. So I will back new stuff. I backed a plastic Landschnects kickstarter (that kind of thing gets me unreasonably excited) that didn't start – I lost nothing. I backed a Chinese Warring States kickstarter – I liked their sculpts (can't say that I really need them, but ….) . It didn't start and they passed it on to someone else who took the idea further and kickstarted it successfully. watchfulistudio.com I backed the most recent Bones kickstarter because it was a killer deal on some figures I wanted – so if an established company gives you a discount I would back it
I agree that you need to do some checking on a kickstarter. Sketches without sample products, lots of free items on stretch goals, no previous experience with miniatures – all red flags to me. If it gets really big, then it is possible that they will have production/supply issues. You might as well pull out and wait for it to come out at retail I would not spend more than a couple of hundred dollars as I cannot afford to take the risk of getting nothing back. Incidentally I don't gamble (lots of Casinos around here …) John |
Timmo uk | 20 Dec 2015 3:29 a.m. PST |
I'd say that like any gamble don't commit more than you can afford to loose. I've not been tempted by any but if the right one came along then I certainly would make a small contribution. For example, simple to build injection moulded 1/144 WW1 planes, designed for wargamers not modellers, would have me very excited and probably getting carried away. I've not backed any of the ARES KS projects as I've not wanted the models offered but I understand have all been a success. I think, but stand corrected, that the KS to get Napoleon's Battles re-released failed. |
freewargamesrules | 20 Dec 2015 3:48 a.m. PST |
So far I have backed 5 KS (and done 1 late pledge). 4 are from very small companies that couldn't make the product without a KS and the other two were form CMON (thought they was cool and knew I wouldn't get burnt with them). Of the 4 small KS I backed 2 have already delivered on time and on budget. I did quite a bit of research into all 4 of them. They had all backed other KS so had given back to the community. The owners on all 4 were very upfront about where they were with the production process with 3 of them nearly complete of all the work prior to the KS. The other 1 was upfront about being someway from completion but had given plenty of information about when he expected to deliver and what needed to be done. All 4 were giving lots of useful updates prior to by backing. All had videos of gameplay and had published their rulebooks a big plus so I know how the game plays before I pledge. In all cases of the 4 small one's their stretch goals were reasonable without being over generous. 2 of them are a bigger risk than the others I have backed but in each case I have limited my spend so that if I get burnt, my hit is not too bad. My view is if I can't afford to lose that amount of money I won't back it. However, if I can afford to lose the money and the project seems reasonable I will give it a punt. Otherwise, I will wait until retail. |
Fergal | 20 Dec 2015 8:18 a.m. PST |
I was just thinking the other day that KS had finally become some commonplace that we didn't have these, why kickstarter? threads anymore, then two pop up in a week. Kickstarter is a COMPLETELY new model for CROWDFUNDING. Many folks, especially those involved in the industry pre-KS or just old school guys who know what they want, can't wrap their heads around it. They continue to try to stuff it into old categories, where it doesn't fit, when discussing it. You can't fit round pegs in square holes, KS drilled a new shaped hole for itself and is doing it quite well. It's different than any system before it. The part that always entertains me is the old school guy who approaches the conversation on the defensive. As if people are telling him he has to accept it or he's inferior. No one has to use KS, ever… However, if you want to see something new, that wouldn't be done without some cash injection from like minded folks, KS is for you. Yes there is some risk, but you knew that already. If you see kickstarter as a pre-order (like mantic and reaper do) then you will be disappointed by the types of projects that KS was created for. Creative people hoping to find others to make their creations possible. I've run 5 KS's and fulfilled every pledge that my backers were entitled to, and I was six days late once. By the end, I was investing the same amount of money in my projects as my backers were. I think there are quite a few projects like that. If you see a project like Winter War in the future, don't back it, if it's too good to be true… |
Lou from BSM | 20 Dec 2015 9:29 a.m. PST |
I've only participated in one; Conan. I'm a little disappointed, as it is late (original projected date was October), but encouraged by the constant communication from the organizers. We do receive periodic updates with photos of the various figures as they are being completed. I am told that some people have received their sets (smaller orders that included only the base kit) but those of us with larger investments are going to have to continue to wait. I'm in for ~$400 myself and while it's not a bank- breaking investment for me, it is significant. I think I might continue to support future KS's but I may be a bit more reserved based upon my first experience. |
nazrat | 20 Dec 2015 10:09 a.m. PST |
"After looking at two Kickstarters that seem to fail horribly – Winter War Baker Company and All Quiet on the Martian Front (Architects of War)." Well, I am a backer for All Quiet, and although I'd like to have my last bits I have to take issue with the "failed horribly" description. I paid $413 USD for my All Out War pledge, and after the two waves arrived had $1,700 USD worth of product in hand. The KS was badly run but nowhere near a failure. I am completely satisfied with the models and rules and have played many excellent games. That I am out three or four models hurts my feelings not a bit. Would I like to have them? Of course. But I don't need them to play a really fun game. Here's to hoping all the worst thoughts and theories about AoW aren't true and they make good on their orders and promises! |
cazador | 20 Dec 2015 11:22 a.m. PST |
Caveat emptor. Happy Christmas to all. |
Old Glory | 20 Dec 2015 12:38 p.m. PST |
Hey guys, I have a great idea, I will start a Miniatures company where I make all kinds of Miniatures in various scales, put them in large bags and sell them at a cheaper retail price---all of you give me your money so I can own the company _-----????? Wait a minute -----?????? "Never mind" With a smile Regards Russ Dunaway
|
Fergal | 20 Dec 2015 1:12 p.m. PST |
Thank you Russ for helping to illustrate my point. KS is not for starting businesses. It is to create something that didn't exist before. i.e., I want a 28mm model of Washington crossing the Delaware and no one produces it, and I can't afford to pay $800 USD for a single model. I sort our a sculptor and a mold maker, then go to KS to find others that want it and ask them to pay a reasonable price for a copy of it. Some folks have the impression that it's used to start companies, or get huge discounts on things. Some folks try to go there seeking bargains or to start companies, they will always be disappointed. Those seeking something new and interesting are regularly rewarded. |
Cardinal Ximenez | 20 Dec 2015 4:02 p.m. PST |
Exactly. Thank you, Fergal. DM |
Disco Joe | 20 Dec 2015 4:17 p.m. PST |
I don't back KS. If you make something that I want to get then I will purchase it from you. |
Old Glory | 20 Dec 2015 6:55 p.m. PST |
My comments on all of the kickstarter threads are not intended to be either pro or con for or against them. It is just to point out that to the people that keep insisting that all they are is a pre-sale and nothing more are mistaken -- there is a risk involved that the "backer" should be aware of. I would think that most kickstarters, once they have created something "new and wonderful" also have a desire to start a business? Is it not a fact that one must have a tax ID before you can even launch? I would think that most would have a desire to continue to sell the product after the kickstarter which would mean there must be some desire to engage in a business venture to some degree – or so it seems to me – but what would I know about business? Kickstarters have no effect on me one way or another and anyone has as much right to run one as anybody else – established or not. Just if they do not go as planned I do not see how either side should really boo hoo ---MHO anyway? Regards Russ Dunaway |
jwebster | 20 Dec 2015 10:17 p.m. PST |
Some folks have the impression that it's used to start companies,
Didn't oculus essentially start as a kickstarter ? |
Fergal | 21 Dec 2015 6:14 a.m. PST |
Didn't oculus essentially start as a kickstarter ? I'm sure there are many companies that do start with a kickstarter. But the stated puprose is to create something new, which a company can do too. Russ, you seem to make many assumptions, read this page if you ever have a chance. It would answer many questions and give you a more solid base for assumptions. link I would think that most kickstarters, once they have created something "new and wonderful" also have a desire to start a business? That's quite an assumption. Most of the folks that I know personally who use it have a day job, but like to make cool stuff. Of course there are quite a few businesses that use it too. I have never personally taken ANY money out of kickstarter rewards to do anything other than make more figures. I did pay for a hotel room at a con once, so maybe not ANY money, but every other cent went into making more figures, no profit at all, just more capital for production. I have a business, but I've run 5 KS and might not be the norm.
Is it not a fact that one must have a tax ID before you can even launch? It is not a fact. I have never given them any tax info.
I would think that most would have a desire to continue to sell the product after the kickstarter which would mean there must be some desire to engage in a business venture to some degree – or so it seems to me – but what would I know about business? Not everyone sells a product on KS, look outside the games category for projects that don't involve making a physical product. My cousin was part of a group that wanted to produce a play, they were simply raising money to pay the royalties to the author. No one intended to make any money or birth a business. You might know quite a bit about business, but you should read up on KS a bit more? I think some perspective might be skewed with how it is used in our hobby by the big boys, just churning out games and expansions with it when they really should be financing in the traditional way since they don't need KS. But, hey, it's allowed so they do it. For every Cool Mini or Not mega project, there are sooooo many more small projects succeeding and failing. |
Old Glory | 21 Dec 2015 10:57 a.m. PST |
Fergal, I have read all of the kickstarter and even thought about doing one and could see no advantage in it for me. I still have the understanding that you must have a tax ID even launch a kickstarter -- or at least on paper be a business -- that's not handing over "tax info" I just fail to see your logic? Crossover miniatures is a business --profit or loss, fun or work -- its a business.You sell things? Weather or not you develop a watch, a cooler, a miniature,or a game it will become a business if you sale them --big or small -- its a business. I also think Kickstarter has chose their words very carefully, probably under legal advice? (another assumption of mine) Kickstarter provides a platform and venue where public funds are solicited, for whatever reason and kickstarter also has a vested interest in the raising of those funds. I also suspect that sometime in the future this will be challenged in front of a judge? (another assumption) Backer = investor (no equity invester = the worse) Funding= capital Projects= venture Just because another word is used does not make it a different beast. Every venture --be it through personal investment, debt, kickstarter,etc. is the pursuit to "produce", "create", launch a new "project". Motives, goals, profit, loss does not change it from whst it is --in fact, the one thing Kickstarter does not allow is simple charity. I am sure there are a handful of kickstarters that do not make a physical project, but the vast majority do. I know it sounds like I am against Kickstarters --in fact I am not -- I think it provides a great opportunity -- none the less -- this is how I view them as to what nature of beast they are. Either way, there is no use going around and around as I have my views. Regards Russ Dunaway |
Miniatureships | 21 Dec 2015 11:28 a.m. PST |
Fregal, If you keep reading down the link that you give, you will find that kickstarter is really hinting at this being a way for people to either start a business or build a business by the way a person should research who they are backing. Does the person they are going to back have knowledge about what they are doing? a web page? similar projects or a better word, products? What is their track record, which to me the same as doing a back ground check on a company. Second, my first encounter or hearing about kickstarter was via the Minneapolis Star and Tribune, in which they talked about it being a way for people to either launch a business or expand a business. They paper interviewed people who either got a business started or found it as a way to expand their business during a recession and banks were saying no. The paper also pointed out projects that had not come to be due often to the lack of control over production by the creator. Great idea, but failed in execution process. Just because you are using the word project, does not mean that it is not involved some way in a business. Raising money for a play, will if successful result in the people putting on the play charge for admission. People who raise money for movies, if successful raise money off admission prices from those movies. Just because the kickstarter doesn't send me something in the mail does not mean that their is not a business goal in mind. But, in reading your own comments, I see why some projects fail. You note that you put as much of your personal money into the project as what you raise. What happens if you all of sudden hit on an item that goes to a couple of hundred thousand? Then what? Then the cost of running a doing business really rears it's ugly head. I believe the biggest issue is how we view the internet and consumer buying. The internet, in order to conduct business in a new way, has had to come up with new ways to say things that skirt the old ways. Kickstarter is just a new way to skirt banking and investment capital paper work, as well as time, to get new ideas and projects into the hands of people, and many of these people doing this on kickstarter are doing it as a second job – just take the 3 gentleman that did card game, Exploding Kitty's. They raised 8.7 million, and from what a gather in their comments have not left their day jobs. |
ViscountEric | 21 Dec 2015 12:08 p.m. PST |
I'm always amazed that people are willing to fork over hundreds of dollars for a land of milk and honey, sight unseen? There have been plenty of projects that promise the world that I've pledged a dollar to just to follow the drama I knew that was going to unfold. Out of the 11 Kickstarters I've pledged with a reward level, 9 have delivered. Of the current no-gos, one was a then-local RPG writer who claims to have everything finished on a computer that may be a vintage Texas Instruments (sob stories) and the other is from RAFM with a year-long delay that they swear is shipping out "SOON!" I won't participate in another Kickstarter from either of them. I will continue to order any current stock from RAFM. On the other end, therre are those people/companies that have this down to a science. Sure, it's old hat for Reaper by this point, but then there's Star Patrol link , where the fellow has his cost breakdowns down to the tenth of a cent. Yes, it is a three dollar game (S&H included), but I beleve he's turned a small profit on each one, and they're largely on-time. |
Fergal | 21 Dec 2015 12:15 p.m. PST |
Tax ID = SS# for many I personally am an LLC, but I needn't be to run a kickstarter. Just because another word is used does not make it a different beast. We'll have to disagree on this one, I've said repeatedly that it's a new concept, and you have said repeatedly that it is this old concept. Yup, we've covered just about everything. similar projects or a better word, products? What is their track record, which to me the same as doing a back ground check on a company. Sounds like sound advice, it stops folks from backing strangers as forming a community is one of the great things about KS. Second, my first encounter or hearing about kickstarter was via the Minneapolis Star and Tribune, in which they talked about it being a way for people to either launch a business or expand a business. I'm shocked that reporters didn't understand a new concept! Raising money for a play, will if successful result in the people putting on the play charge for admission. Unless you use the money to pay the royalties to the author then do the play because you love theater? But, in reading your own comments, I see why some projects fail. You note that you put as much of your personal money into the project as what you raise. What happens if you all of sudden hit on an item that goes to a couple of hundred thousand? Then what? Then the cost of running a doing business really rears it's ugly head. I put the money in to pay for greens and all the stuff to get ready. Had I hit it big and made hundreds of thousands (would have been a surprise that so many folks wanted 28mm super hero figs), there would have indeed been trouble. If I were selling something that would go into the 100's of thousands, I'd like to think I'd know it before launch? Will everyone? Nope, but you can always withdraw as a backer before the end or cancel the project as the creator. Not saying that everyone would follow these courses of action. Kickstarter is just a new way to skirt banking and investment capital paper work, as well as time, If you don't believe that crowdfunding is an 'new thing' I'm not likely to convince you… |
Old Glory | 21 Dec 2015 12:39 p.m. PST |
Still Just an old concept (fund raising) with a new modus operandi. Word it how you want. |
Miniatureships | 21 Dec 2015 3:28 p.m. PST |
Fregal; I disagree that Crowd funding is a new idea – 20 years ago my miniature business was expanding and I needed about $5,000 USD for more raw material to make product. I would get that money back in about 2 months, but the suppliers wanted to be paid up front. I went to the bank for a short term loan, and the banker turned me down saying the paper work wasn't work the time for what he would get back on interest. He suggest two options, a high interest credit card or crowd funding. He suggestion of crowd funding was no different than what Kickstarter has on their site, talk to family and friends and see if they will loan you the money. The only thing novel about crowd funding now is that you have the internet in which to advertise your need for money. Lastly, I would say, looking at your 5 kickstarters and the way you promoted them, you promoted them as a business venture. The first one starts, "a new line of miniatures" and as a consumer, I would understand that to mean, if successful you will continue to sell them as well as add to them so that I can expand my gaming experience. |
javelin98 | 21 Dec 2015 4:54 p.m. PST |
I've had six or seven great experiences with KS, and only one burn (granted, that was for $300 USD for a 3D printer, but still). I'm generally pleased with how well those projects have all gone. I'm also pretty selective about which ones I'll back. |
Miniatureships | 21 Dec 2015 6:00 p.m. PST |
I would like to add one thing to this conversation and why I believe Kickstarter to be a source for either starting a new business or expanding a business. First, things have changed in the way people find out about products and business. Even in the miniature market. Some magazines are in house publications, some only center on a few companies or a small little click of companies, and some allow their personal interest to exclude any company that is not part their interest. I even see this page losing it's place in letting people know what is happening in the miniature market, due to other online sources blogs, and face book pages operated by companies. Second, Kickstarter is actually a good place to measure the old saying, "if you make it, people will buy it!" Prior to kickstarter, often a company would make something only to find that it never really did well. Kickstarter helps businesses get new items of market faster than before, because you getting the capital up front. It is nice to have the money to pay for sculpting, mold making, etc, up front and deliver a paid for product instead of wondering will I sell enough before the bills come due. Now, kickstarter does have projects that having nothing to do with business, such as the potato salad kickstarter. But for those to raise money you better be first in the bazaar or very creative so that people are knowing donating for nothing more than enjoying a crazy fun idea. |
Cardinal Ximenez | 22 Dec 2015 3:20 p.m. PST |
Miniatureships wrote: If you keep reading down the link that you give, you will find that kickstarter is really hinting at this being a way for people to either start a business or build a business by the way a person should research who they are backing. Does the person they are going to back have knowledge about what they are doing? a web page? similar projects or a better word, products? What is their track record, which to me the same as doing a back ground check on a company. or most importantly, how much of your own capital is already invested? It's the first question I ask. DM |
Miniatureships | 22 Dec 2015 3:38 p.m. PST |
Don, One thing that I noticed as read though the Kickstarter rules, and it was something different that when I did my own kickstarter about a year ago – is that you need to show some sort of finished product. In terms of miniatures, I am guessing that a person or individual needs to show more than just a digital image, thus having some sort of prototype. I am assuming that Kickstarter is pushing people to get more of an understanding of the cost involved so that when their kickstarter is over they are not already behind. |
SultanSevy | 22 Dec 2015 7:33 p.m. PST |
I've backed 12 Kickstarters. 10 of them delivered, 2 are still work-in-process, but close to the finish-line and I'm pretty confident that they will deliver the product. Kickstarting something is giving a company (1) the ability to gauge demand for a product, and (2) giving them the seed money to actually help produce a product that would be financially expensive for them to produce otherwise. As previous posters have said, you're taking a chance when you Kickstart something that you might not get anything in return for your pledge money. So if you're worried about that (and most people who pledge hundreds of dollars for something usually are), do your due diligence. Does the KS seem well-formed (can they show you actual product or strong prototypes? Are the people running it experienced in producing this kind of product? Do they frequently update the campaign and keep in touch with the folks who have pledged to-date? And so on). I feel badly for people who have had bad Kickstarter experiences. But we're all adults here and need to take SOME responsibility for making the ultimate decision to back a project. Why anyone would throw BIG MONEY at something that they're really unsure about, and money they can't afford to lose to boot, is simply not being smart. Perhaps I'm naïve, but I would guess 95% of the people who launch a Kickstarter honestly WANT to produce and deliver their product – it puts them in business to make/sell future products if they're successful with the Kickstarter. |
Old Glory | 22 Dec 2015 9:36 p.m. PST |
AMEN SultanSevy!! I know of one fellow who only invests in Kickstarters (cheaper costs) to then resale the product on Ebay -- I have no problem with that, but then this fellow is the largest voice in the "yelling foul" group and "we were ripped off" crowd when there are severe financial/production/supply problems --even though they were directly involved for the sake of commerce. Another thing I do not really understand is the person who has helped fund (invested in) a kickstarter and when there is a problem, they begin to try to harm the company and bring about an even more dark result??????????????? Seems like a "cutting of your nose to spite your face" situation to me? Very counter productive in the end and a "lose =lose for everyone involved ?? Perhaps the results of pyscho negativity ??? If I own shares in GM I only will support the sales of Chevy trucks -- not attempt to harm them????????? (subliminally typed = buy Old Glory, buy old glory, buy old glory, buy old glory, buy old glory, buy old glory --- Regards with a smile Russ Dunaway |