"Historicon 2016. No room at the inn?" Topic

Hi all. Tried to get a jump on securing a hotel room for Historicon 2016, but no rooms are available at the Homewood Suites or Hilton Garden Inn.

I figured booking a room 7 months early would be enough of a lead up! What gives?

They tend to fill up fast.

Have you tried calling the hotels directly? The Hilton had rooms a few months ago even though the online reservations showed them as full.

I put my name down on a list to book my room for next year at the time I'm checking out at Historicon. So no, 7 months ahead is not enough.

For Historicon, and for the hotels right there by the convention center,you need to book about a year ahead if you want to guarantee a room.

Definitely give them a call.

There is a third hotel there. Hampton Inn.

In my experience the rooms get booked up just after Historicon is over. You fill out the form on Sunday before you leave, or call the next week and get on the list.

So two of the three main hotels are already booked up and we are over six months out before the convention. Seems to me that pronouncements of Historicon's demise have been premature. Just saying.

FCC was selected, in part, because of the additional space – 1/3 larger than the Host at twice the cost. Aside from 1/3 less people now attending, it appears the available hotel space is not adequate to even handle that.

If Hcon is economically feasible (barely at this point – it made $5 USDk in profit this past year, and I bet if you added in all the chapter expenses it lost money), it certainly has no room to grow, given the shortage of hotel rooms. Not that growth has been a problem of late.

Demise? Well, yes, compared to what it came from. Death? No, but at best it is limping along.

Shortage of hotel room? Within walking distance, yes. But within 5-10 min drive, there are numerous other choices. So, crying about how poor FCC is because of the hotel space, is bogus.

Now about those concrete floors, though…

Time after time you slate HCon and say it is a failure it is not, it is successful and people enjoy it.

So please stop flogging this dead horse as you clearly have some issues about HCon being at FCC.

Your often quoted 1/3rd less people has time and time again been disputed and yet you keep sledging HCon and the BOD.

So if driving to a hotel is okay, then that should help widen the options for finding new facilities.

Hmmm, I know the facts are inconvenient for some.

I never said Hcon was a failure, so please don't put words in my mouth.

No one is disputing the numbers for Hcon that I am aware of. Any numbers I have used came from the organization themselves. FYI, I was tasked with creating a 10 year attendance trend by the BOD some years ago, so perhaps, just perhaps, I know a little more than you sitting 3,000 miles away.

Enjoying yourself at a con as opposed to all time attendance numbers is apples to watermelon. I bet you could have a good time gaming with 4 people, so that really isn't relevant.

I do have to wonder why a guy in the UK gives a hoot anyway. Maybe you should let us Yanks work out our own cons mate. :-)

I'm not anti-southern for our cons (like some), I just recognize that this particular venue has proven very unpopular with many that attended in the past – as based on attendance.

I would say that any HMGS con held in the UK is right out of consideration though. :-)

1. They are not facts just your opinion and selective use of supposed stats.

2. I am a paid up member and supporter of HMGS.

3. I attend the HMGS shows and run games at them.

4. I voted for the BOD and I support them rather than slag them off and accuse them of mal practice. They need support not snide remarks and the constant complaints from those who sit on the side lines.

5. I have watched you year on year slag off HCon and the numerous people who have offered alternate views. People get fed up with your harping about a show that they care about and enjoy… So suck it up I can have an opninon and tough if you don't like it. 2500+ people enjoy HCon so deal with it….

Wow, somone got up on the wrong side of the bed.

holien,

Free country – don't like what historygamer writes don't read it. Or stifle/ignore him if that makes you happier.

Not that I have a dog in the fight, I have yet to make it there from the "Eden" of Saint Louis.

He's just sore about the whole Independence thing. :-)

Yep free country for me to counter his constant skewing.

So I will exercise that freedom.

;)

If people just sit back and let extremists push their line it is a thin edge of a dangerous wedge….

Shortage of rooms? If all three on-site hotels are booked, they have 20% more rooms than the Host, IF all of the Host's rooms were suitable for human occupation. I believe that last happened during the Ford Administration.

And given the Host's meandering halls, a walk across the parking lot in Fredericksburg might be equidistant.

Worst case, there's a lovely slum of a Motel 6 four minutes away by car. Reminds my wife of the one we stayed at in Georgia, where she claimed the bedbugs had hepatitis, ebola, and a addiction to meth, but half us gamers aren't picky.

At least those won't be auctioned off this year *fingers crossed*

Perhaps you could tell us all how your experience was at FI and CW this past year? How about telling us all what volunteer positions you have manned at HMGS cons, or work you have done for the BODs? I mean, all opinions are equal and based on equal experience, right?

No agrument from me, the Host is a dump. Shame on the most recent past BOD for waiting till the present BOD was faced with a crisis.

Viscount:

Comparing the Host (one facility) to three near/adjacent to the FCC is not a fair comparison. A fair comparison would be the hotels surrounding the FCC to the Host the Country Inn and Suites, Red Roof, Continental, etc.

Many years I have stayed at other hotels other than the Host, so the hotel on site is not a requirement for some of us. Nice to have, but as you said, given the meandering hallways and steps in the Host, not always that convenient anyway.

Given the fallen attendance at all the cons (not just Hcon), it would be beneficial if HMGS thought outside the box and realized that smaller (and hopefully nicer) venues could work just as well.

I agree with a previous poster, no concrete floors! Noise and knees. :-(

I'm a bit confused.

1) Is HC less-well attended at FCC than at the Host?
2) Are there less on-site rooms at FCC than the Host?

1. Yes, absolutely less attendance. Attendance started to drop in the last year at the Host, then again in the two years at VFCC, then even more at the FCC. Overall it has fallen from roughly 4,000 to about 2,500.

To be fair, CW has been losing as well and FI kind of muddles along, perhaps a slight up tick.

Historygamer, I would love to see the breakdown of the 4,000 vs 2,500 attendees. I know it was very common to count family members in the numbers at the Host, but I imagine we may have less of these now than in Lancaster (I surely do not see as many spouses and families as I used to). I still question those numbers some since I know there were a lot of duplicate counting back in the day. I used to have help with me back then that also registered as an attendee so they could preregister for games, so they at lease were counted twice. Not many overall, but if you have enough of this for one reason or another then the numbers surely bounce up.

No doubt there are less folks attending the FCC but this has been declining since the host for a ton of reasons. It is just not the location. I know if I was not a vendor, I would likely only attend one show a year……..

Once a convention gets above a certain size, the number of sites with onsite/walking distance lodging is pretty small that also fall within the price thresholds of the typical gamer. And depending on the convention, it still isn't enough. Yes the Host had a ton of nearby hotel rooms. But as people are well aware, the facility has other strikes against it. GenCon – good luck getting a hotel connected to the convention facility – those rooms sell out in HOURS and at prices that would make most of the cheapskates here whimper.

You want onsite rooms ? Book early.

I confess to being a bit of a travel snob, so when I head to the HMGS East shows I prefer BnBs and boutique hotels. I'm happy to pay more for a lovely room, non-microwaved breakfast, and a decent bar/restaurant in the lobby. In Lancaster I recommend the Cork Factory. It is a 10 minute drive up Route 30. I stop at Starbuck's on the way. Never understood the mania for being on site anyway…

Extra Crispy, I like your choice of hotel personally. I prefer nicer accomodations myself and will often stay at a nearby hotel (but do prefer close walking distance). Afterall, it is great to be able to go back to the room to refresh, stock the cooler and take care of "business". :-)

This is best accomplished with a quick walk to the room since I have a booth to man and cannot be away long (and I have not stayed at the Host in 12+ years).

Doug,

and take care of "business"

We can cross you off the list of possible toilet demons then ;-)

BTC:

Bob, Neil and Duncan were, in my opinion, the best at scrubbing out duplicate badges than any con team before (I am not even sure anyone did this prior to their efforts) or probably since. In short, if you want to question the A Team of Con management, you do so at your own risk. :-) That said, the new system is apparently so hard to use, and doesn't do any of this on its own (according to the users on the HMGS Yahoo group) that it's quite possible the numbers are less reliable now that when Bob, et al, were scrubbing the data.

The 10 year trend I compiled for the BOD way back when was based on con reports, CD reports, etc, and was accepted by the then BOD as the most correct info out there. Of course we are talking long before the move from the Host.

I agree with your assessment on the impacts of attendance, but there are dozens (more?) of posts on here from people telling why they don't attend. And again, to be fair, I would also cited the numbers from the past treasurer how CW numbers were down and FI was kind of flat. We could speculate endlessly why those were what they were as well. That is what the internet is for. :-)

We do know one thing for sure about attendance at the FCC – it is lower than either of the two cons at VFCC and the last two at the Host. That said, I am not advocating for any particular place to move it, and I doubt it will move at all for at least a year or two.

Also, FCC will likely live or die by vendors like yourself who pay so much to attend. If you guys feel sales are good and continue to pay, it can survive a bit longer I suspect.

There are at least three hotels a minute or three off site (about 375 more rooms) with Thurs-Sun availability.

Sure they're probably a step down from the on-site, but still the esteemed wargaming quality of surrounding Lancaster lodgings.

The big enclave of hotels is three miles north on I-95, good, bad, and otherwise, ranging between $55 USD-120 a night. That might be more our speed.

And just to give perspective for the Host and surrouding hotels. The distance between the FCC and the furthest on-site hotel (door-to-door) is a few feet more than walking from the front of the Host to the back via the parking lot.

Looks like the grey spaces are going to make a comeback….

Once a convention gets above a certain size, the number of sites with onsite/walking distance lodging is pretty small that also fall within the price thresholds of the typical gamer. And depending on the convention, it still isn't enough.

*cough cough "Gencon" cough cough*

When a HMGS convention gets to 1/4 the size of Gencon, then I think you have a really valid argument "about not having enough hotel rooms"…

Indy is in the process of building THREE new hotels downtown and it still won't be enough for the rooms for Gencon. We have people staying 10-15 miles out for the convention and using shuttle buses…

The three hotels next to the FCC have combined 394 rooms. Considerably more than than at the Host.

As far as Holien's statement is concerned, I don't think that he is trying to censor HG. HG's antipathy towards FCC is well know to anyone who has followed the FCC threads over the years. He has gone so far as to say that he would prefer Williamsburg to FCC, even though it is much further South than FCC. Holien's is not trying to silence him. He is merely pointing out that HC appears to never pass up an opportunity to bash FCC even when, as here, the subject matter had nothing to so with the merits of FCC.

". . . And the beat goes on! And the beat goes on!"

Sounds like that record is getting a little worn out!

Actually the topic was the hotels that are near FCC, so yes, the topic was the convention at FCC.

And yes, he seemed to me that he was trying to shout me down.

My comment about Williamsburg (area) was to show I am not anti-southern. In fact, I live below the Mason-Dixon line. :-)

I also think you are exaggerating the difference in hotel rooms of the Host vs the three hotels surrounding FCC. The Host lists over 300 rooms, so the difference is less than 80 or so rooms. If you count the hotels within walking distance of the Host, Lancaster comes out ahead. That said, the Host is a dump, likely to be torn down soon.

The topic of this thread was that the hotels next to the FCC are already sold out for Hcon. 400 rooms equates to roughly 800 attendees (there are some loners, some with family) so where do the other 1700 people stay? Obviously somewhere else, or just come down for the day.

The con at the FCC is safe, at least for now, so why is anyone worrying about it? I'm not.

2 per room. Makes me wonder if you know any wargamers? :-)

Yeah, we stay in a 2 bedroom suite and have had 5-7 in our room every year since it moved to the FCC. Filling the room has not been a challenge.

Holien,

You're just wrong. F'burg did lose about a third of attendees. You can like the location, you can be in favor of the move…but arguing that facts are not facts because you are annoyed at someone who disagrees with you does not make your point very well.

I was unhappy with the move, and I talked about it here. But I also went to all four Hcons in F'burg. It is what it is, but the constant nonsense people post in mindless support of a position is too much. They count differently in F'burg. The recession seven years ago just hit when we got to F'burg. Families don't go in F'burg.

My God, just stop. F'burg cause a decline in attendance. Period. But the con down there still works. Like it better, or don't like it and don't go. But please, stop with foolish, baseless arguments just because you're cheerleading for your side.

FYI, I don't like it that H'con in in F'burg. But did you see me say it works there? Yes, it was damaged in terms of attendance. But no, it wasn't destroyed. Must I insist it was utterly destroyed so I can play the same mindless game of twisting anything to make my point with no regard whatsoever for reality?

Back to the posters original question rather the the repetitive and childish Fredericksburg is "good" or "bad" ramblings

(1) If you're using the HMGS code for a discounted room, try booking without it as the hotels only reserve a certain number of rooms for the discount

(2) For 2015, I was in the same boat and got a room about 4 miles away. A week before the con I called the Hilton as was able to grab a room from a cancellation – there are always a good number of cancellation / no shows

(3) Join the hotels frequent traveler programs – it will give you a preference over others when a room opens up

Good luck finding a hotel room and I hope you make it to the con. The FCC may not be the most elegant of facilities but I always have a great time and really enjoy putting on games there.

Just booked on Expedia 4 nights at the Country Suites a one bedroom two queen beds for 495.00 on expedia 3 miles away from FCC. Hope this helps other rooms still available but this was a great rate for a suite.

HG this is where it started…

The Original poster of the thread stated rooms were full and you jumped in to say the following…

"FCC was selected, in part, because of the additional space – 1/3 larger than the Host at twice the cost. Aside from 1/3 less people now attending, it appears the available hotel space is not adequate to even handle that.
If Hcon is economically feasible (barely at this point – it made $5.00 USD USDk in profit this past year, and I bet if you added in all the chapter expenses it lost money), it certainly has no room to grow, given the shortage of hotel rooms. Not that growth has been a problem of late.
Demise? Well, yes, compared to what it came from.
Death? No, but at best it is limping along."

As noted by dbf1676 I and quite a few others are a tad frustrated by the continued bashing of an event we all want to succeed. I and others really enjoy the event and while for some the location is not ideal this constant snarks do nothing to help the event and becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
It does seem you tend to bang the drum against the BOD and HCon from my reading of your other posts on this site. My post was a reflection of that frustration and not an attempt to silence you.

So as I have a bit of time on my hands today let's have a look at where this frustration comes from.

IMO some people on the forum have an agenda to prove that FCC is a failure and will take any opportunity to malign the event. Look at some of the phrases used just here…

"at best it is limping along."

"Hotel Space is not adequate"

"I bet… …It lost money"

Look at this thread from 2012 where it was stated that FCC was cheaper than VFCC and why it made sense to move to FCC, Yes it was cheaper at the Host but look now what is being said even by you…

theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=275665&page=1

"The only problem (well, okay, there is more than one) is that given the alarming decline of attendance at CW, and the high cost of the FCC facility, it may not be economically feasible."

theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=403881&page=2

Yet it was shown in the above thread in 2012 that FCC was around 10k more expensive than Host and way cheaper than VFCC. Selective use of figures again. High cost, yes compared to Host but it was not when you compare it to VFCC and I am sure the other options looked at by the BOD at the time.
The Host was cheap but look at where that has lead the Host to. FCC is cheap compared to other locations like VFCC as shown in that thread.

The issue around numbers of people attending HCon and the often stated and implied point that by moving to FCC attendance is continually declining. This is again a selective use of figures to support an agenda to get the event moved IMO.

This thread in Nov 2014, again when it was noted that hotel rooms were going quick (funny how history repeats itself). ;)

theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=365764

" Let's assume F'burg teethes out its' problems and takes off…."

HG Wrote –

After three years there, and three consecutive drops in attendance, is this really likely?

These assertions were challenged and disproved by kayjay in Nov 2014 who then got a tad frustrated with the whole debate after that (funny how different people get frustrated with this, I wonder why)….

"Sorry this is a incorrect statement. Attendance increased from 2012 to 2013. It decreased from 2013 to 2014…
HCON is the largest of the 3 by far, in 2014 HCON had 700 more attendees then CW."

Yet in May 2015 HG you push the same line
theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=383632

"If the trend of attendance continues to decline at the FCC (three out of four years, including this last year), it is a given Hcon will have to move. The question is, where?"

So Kajjay who knows his stuff (he is on BOD) says the figures were up in 2013 and down slightly in 2014 I have been trying to find the exact figures for 2013 and 2014 (see further on) and that statement clearly shows up 2 years in the last 4 even if 2015 was down a bit. (If anyone can provide exact figures I can update so we are all on level playing field (well as level as it can be….)) ?
Even in this current thread the following is suspect and a skewing of "facts" to support a view point.

"Overall it has fallen from roughly 4,000 to about 2,500."

See the actual figures below and other threads where the last three year average at the host was around 3,500…. I think 3,560 is closer to 3,500 than 4,000 IMO

2009 Last year of Host 3,560 as posted by

theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=275239&page=2

This whole thread above has lots of debate on validity of the numbers and how a decline might be explained by other factors. Yes for sure the new location has had an impact but there are other factors to take into account but time and time again we are told it is purely down to the move. I disagree.
For the sake of ongoing debate here are the summary numbers I could find: -

2007 = 3,254 – Host
2008 = 3,667 – Host
2009 = 3,560 – Host
2010 = 2,980 – VFCC [*Change from BCC at the last minute]
2011 = 2,958 – VFCC
2012 = 2,700 – FCC
2013 = n,nnn – FCC
2014 = n,nnn – FCC
2015 = 2,450 – FCC

So overall there has been a decrease of around a 1,000 people from the last three year average at the Host.

But to keep saying it is currently declining is a selective use of the figures and not totally true, it seems to have stabilised around the 2,500 mark and it makes a profit at the current location and even by your figures the space will allow it to cater for more people as long as those people use the plentiful hotels in the area of Fburg.

The decrease in people from the host is a big figure nobody disputes that, but as has been explained numerous times the FCC was the best choice after VFCC – it was cheaper, and had within minutes' walk more rooms than the Host in three really nice hotels and in a stable location. I.e. a convention centre is less likely than a hotel to go out of business and be kept in a reasonable state.

So let's see what is the alternate being offered? HG you say…

"I'm not trying to bury Hcon at the FCC as I have no good solution where else it should be. Frankly after this past weekend at FI I'd like to see either CW or FI move so all our eggs aren't in the Host basket. Again, I have no idea where that other place should be, especially given the horrific recent reviews of the Ike I just read.
HMGS is in something of a pickle. :-( Not good for any of us."

And again in this current thread

"That said, I am not advocating for any particular place to move it, and I doubt it will move at all for at least a year or two."

So if you have no alternative and you keep sledging the current location and painting a picture of decline what do you think that might do for those who are new to the hobby and read such comments on these forums.

The BOD has made some good improvements at the FCC site and considering what is happening with the Host and Fall In and Cold Wars we are lucky that HCon has a secure site that is enjoyed and supported by around 2,500 people.

I enjoyed my time at FallIn and HCon this year and I hope to be able to come back next year to support HMGS and drink beer with a great bunch of folks who really know how to game.

HG we want the same thing let's try and support it rather than continually knock it.

(On a side note fingers crossed that the BOD can pull off a great CW for people to enjoy.)

(One last point on rather a long post I will be more than happy to attend HCon if it moves North, South or West (guessing East might not be possible ;) ) of the current location, I am not tied to FCC I just want people to give it a chance or come up with a fantastic better location….)

I am really loathe to jump in again to addres this off-topic topic. Suffice to say I stand by may statements as they are correct on loss of attendance and cost of facility. My hope is that the BOD will move Hcon eventually (I think it is inevitable at this point) as the loss of my entire group attending is my ax to grind. That would be anywhere from 15 to 20 people in any given year.

Since you said you'll attend where ever it ends up, what do you really care then?

Of a more disturbing note, I can't believe I used the word pickle. :-)

Wow. There is a decline of almost 1000 people from 2009! CD and HG are correct. This is just too funny!! The BoD made some great improvements in the FCC and they lost over 200 people???? My goodness, if I went into any planning meeting with these numbers I'd be thrown out!

I guess my question is really – how do you measure success??

The real problem is that FCC hasn't shown growth. A move is always disruptive, but the lack of recovery suggests those people were lost, that FCC simply does not have the draw potential of central PA. And it is really sad how many times people try to blame the economy, when the baseline 2009 Host Hcon was dead in the middle of the financial crisis.

People will define success in any way that validates their viewpoint. Sad, but hard wired into the human animal

I knew the numbers were not good, but I didn't realize how bad this is. After four conventions at the FCC, it lost 250 attendees? The heck with not shown growth, it lost attendees. Let's say the average admission is 25.00 – in the four years there the convention experienced a LOSS of $6,250.00 USD in admission fees.

Now take the numbers from 2009 to 2015 – you went from 3560 attendees to 2450 attendees. If we use the average price of 25.00 – there was a LOSS of $27,750 USD!! Please – ANYBODY – explain how a loss of 27K is a success? Don't tell me about how pretty the FCC is, how hard the BoD are trying, etc. Just stick to the numbers and explain it to me.

If the economy is so bad, how are Gencon and Adepticon supporting the numbers they have? Neither of these two cons are inexpensive.

+1 to Civil D's comments, as usual.

And it is really sad how many times people try to blame the economy, when the baseline 2009 Host Hcon was dead in the middle of the financial crisis.

A little fact checking. Unemployment (which tends to be a trailing indicator) didn't start rising substantially until mid '09 with a peak in late '09. The impact on the con would follow on in the out years. So, yes, its reasonable to assume the economy did have some impact on the attendance numbers for '10 on. Not to say that's the only reason; the move obviously had an impact (as any other factors). But let's not overstate it (like HG so often does). The fall off is more likely due to several factors at work.

Shame on the most recent past BOD for waiting till the present BOD was faced with a crisis.

Its unfair to blame the prior (or current) BoD for the current mess. Just what crystal ball were they supposed to consult to determine that the Host's owners would pick this precise moment to bail?

holien,
Hope to see ya there! I'm gonna run a WW1 air-game based on The Blue Max Movie. I hope ya sign up!
Cheers,
Peter
link