"Marder 1 IFV Armor Values?" Topic
8 Posts
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| Mako11 | 12 Dec 2015 5:54 p.m. PST |
Can't seem to find much of anything on this in my Yahoo/Google searches, do would like to know if anyone has any ideas on the average front and side armor ratings for the Marder 1, 1A1, and 1A2, taking into account the armor slope as well? Given the HS-30's armor rating, including the armor slope is about 50mm for the front and side, presumably it would be as good, if not better than that, especially from the front arc. All I've found is that the front is supposedly proof against 20mm discarding sabot rounds, and 25mm sabot at over 200 meters. There's no mention of side armor, other than presumably it would be proof against standard 12.7mm rounds and shrapnel. Not sure how the side would fare against 14.5mm rounds. Thoughts? |
| tberry7403 | 13 Dec 2015 8:26 a.m. PST |
Sorry this took so long. The best I can do for you are some stats from an old set of NATO vs. Pact rules "Total Conflict" by Gary W. Blum (1984). This rules are set up like the old "Angriff" rules for WWII (if you are at all familiar with those). Front Hull 35mm
Side Hull 30mm
Rear Hull 30mm
Hull Deck 9mm Sorry, but that's the best I could find. |
| MCV 80 | 13 Dec 2015 9:59 a.m. PST |
Hi Mako, in the book "Schόtzenpanzer Marder Die technische Dokumentation des Waffensystems" written by Hans-Peter Lohmann and Rolf Hilmes I found some pretty good information.
At first let me say, that this book is a very good source if you have some German language skills. Referring to the SPz Marder's armour (original version, as applicable for Marder 1 to Marder 1A2) I found a chart. Turret strength angle
Front: 25mm 50°
Side: 15mm 70°/90°
Top: 11mm
Rear: 15mm 75° Hull strength angle
Front (bow): 32mm 66°
Engine cover: 11mm 12°
Side (top): 15mm 60°
Side: 15mm 90°
Rear: 11mm 120°
Deck: 11mm In the same book I found information, congruent with yours, saying that the front should be proof against 20mm ammunition. Referring the 14,5mm round I only found an entry in the Marder 1A3 section which says that the sidekirts protectiong the tracks have been penetrated by it but the armour behind stayed intact.
From my understanding the skirts didn't change until the Marder 1A5 upgrade. That's it from me so far. Kind regards,
Bnejamin |
| Jemima Fawr | 13 Dec 2015 10:36 a.m. PST |
IIRC, the Marder 1A3 upgrade of the late 80s, in common with the concurrent Bradely upgrade (M2A2/M3A2 was it?) added additional side-armour at the expense of losing the firing-ports. |
| MCV 80 | 13 Dec 2015 11:09 a.m. PST |
I do not want to dive to deep into the Marder 1A3 theme as it may would distract us from the orginal question.
However the already mentioned book is of help again.
The requirement for the Marder 1A3 was defined in 1986 and the first Marder 1A3 was handed over on the 17. November 1989.
One major upgrade was the installation of the add-on armour and in conjunction with that the deletion of the firing-ports. From my knowledge such firing-ports have been regarded as near useless as no one will hit anything firing through it from the move. At last riding in an AFV is often challenging enough so that it is not feasible for the infantry to do much fighting from within. The added armour increased the protection quite good. One example is the front armour. During the tests the front armour was shot at with 30x172mm ammunition and while the add-on armour plate was penetrated the original armour behind it was bended but not penetrated. Cheers,
Benjamin |
| Mako11 | 13 Dec 2015 2:13 p.m. PST |
Thank you for all the replies, and details. I really appreciate them. Yes, from what I've read, the Marder 1A3 is supposedly proof against 30mm cannon from the front arc. |
| Mako11 | 13 Dec 2015 11:39 p.m. PST |
I'm thinking 4/2/1 for the Marder 1 1A2 variants, for Team Yankee armor values. Perhaps 3/2/1 for the HS-30 too, though the higher 4/2/1 seems to be appropriate as well, given the 30mm frontal armor thickness and slope giving it a 50mm line of sight thickness rating for the front. 30mm of armor is mentioned for the side armor of the HS-30 too, but I'm not sure if that is just for the upper side, and if that includes the hull slope, or not. Presumably, the lower side armor would be less, since it is vertical. Thoughts? |
| Mako11 | 22 Dec 2015 6:34 p.m. PST |
New values posted from Challenger 2000 rules data: TMP link |
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checks out some 10/15mm railroad tracks for wargaming.