"Brick Red" Topic

Inspired by the thread 'My new favorite "British uniform red"'- I'd like to ask how long it has been received wisdom that enlisted men's uniform coats in te British army were 'brick red' as opposedto the fine scarlet of officers.

I am not questioning the distinction but, as the above discussion shows, the colour of any given brick sits on a wide spectrum of reds. For me, since childhood I have always of something quite orange. The bricks of Victorian housing stock in UK tends to be of a deeper red- (unless the bricks are of London Clay).

So whose bricks are we talking about? Do we know who made the observation first? If so, where did he live- and was his house built of brick, sticks or straw?

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Are you saying it dates back to Wikipedia?

Are you saying it dates back to Wikipedia?

No, don't be silly! I'm saying that that is the accepted definition of the colour "brick red". Here's another:
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Thanks but that's not what I asked!

I have never in my life seen a real brick the shade of red suggested by Wikipedia…but I do accept they come in many combinations of orange and brown and grey….with a simple (pale) red

I'm sure this is an old saying calling something Brick red, most likely from the red clay they would fire to create the bricks almost like a Venetian Dull red or a terracotta. My Father in laws house is completely done in red brick as this would mostly be used as face brick now a days. Maybe because his house was built in the 1800's though.

I have never in my life seen a real brick the shade of red suggested by Wikipedia…

"Brick red" is the description of a colour. It has little if anything to do with the actual colour of bricks.

How interesting. Had never appreciated that. I recall brick red as being an orange/brown …yes, terracotta colour…. but I see what you mean.

Nothing to do with Bricks. So…did British infantry wear the Wiki colour or the orangey/brown colour I always thought to be the colour of bricks (as opposed to Brick Red)?

Mind you…does anyone know and did even a few days in the Peninsula sun transform the red anyway?

So…did British infantry wear the Wiki colour or the orangey/brown colour I always thought to be the colour of bricks (as opposed to Brick Red)?

There does not appear to be any direct evidence for British troops to have worn "brick red" coats. The descrptions of Napoleonic uniforms usually refer simply to red as opposed to the scarlet or crimson worn by the officers.
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Mind you…does anyone know and did even a few days in the Peninsula sun transform the red anyway?

Dyes in the early nineteenth century were not colour fast so yes there would be fading with wear and the effects of sunlight.

The best guide to the colour of uniforms are the surviving examples in regimental museums, although you still need to bear in mind fading due to aging.

42,

The re-created 47th Foot, based in Cheshire, obtained the cloth for their coats from an original contractor, who I believe still had the recipe for the dye. If you ask them, they may be able to send you an off-cut or small sample. It was a dull red with a "pinkness" to it that did not look like any bricks I've ever seen (certainly not in the UK!).

47thfoot.co.uk

The current "scarlet" of British infantry tunics dates from the 1880s; back in the days of the New Model Army, "Venice Red" was the description given in contemporary documents. Unfortunately, you have 200+ years in between……

My guess is that some commentator in the C20th came up with the phrase to describe soldiers' coats (pre-1880s)as distinct frm officers'scarlet and we've been runnng with that ball since. What he/she actually had in mind would have depended on several possible factors.

Natural fading and the wear of superannuated coats in the field- by choice or out of necessity, all play a role in how we might conceive of that 'brick red' as it looked on a soldier's back but at base it is true we do have to look at the dyestuff employed. If only the NAM Chelsea weren't closed at present.

Stroudwater officer grade clothhow early when that industry was established. I wonder if there was a similar geographical focus for ordinary soldiers' cloth, in the same way that there was Accrington khaki much later on. Thanks for the 47th link, SM. I might well drop them an email to see what they can tell us about the contractor.

Brick red is what comes out of your head when someone cracks it open with a brick.

I keep on losing text when I post. Annoying.

What I wrote was:
"Stroudwater officer grade cloth used cochineal to produce fine scarlet but I dont know how early that industry was established."

I thankyew

Most original coats I've seen; where unfaded; are more of a pinky shade than " Brick Red". I've worn some good reproduction coats, too; and they faded so that you could tell where the belts were supposed to go! Madder produces a soft red that fades to a deep pink.

Most original coats I've seen; where unfaded;

How do you know they were unfaded?

42,

The NAM used to have on display an officer's coat of the 49th Foot from the 1770s, which (from memory) fits your Stroudwater description. It is clearly NOT the same colour as the private's* and drummer's coats of the 1st Foot Guards also held by the NAM, both of which had almost a tawny tinge to them.

[ * there has long been some doubt over the private's coat due to the cut and size, with suggestions it belonged to a house servant of a serving/former Guards officer ]

'Tawny' is an interesting description. I don't know whether we should make a distinction between short term fading from exposure in the field and fading over the centuries. I guess the arc of change from the original shade of red would be the same.

Does the question mark over the Foot Guards private's coat extend to the quality of the cloth- and therefore to the dyestuff used?

Servants' livery coats might be of finer cloth. Were Foot Guards coats ordinarily of better quality than those supplied to regiments of the line?

I'm not sure when it started, but I'm pretty sure the Guards were issued with cloth equivalent to that of Line sergeants.

The private's coat is very small, has plain buttons, and has no obvious turnbacks; I'm not aware of any question on the quality side.

Everything faded. Differed from regiment to regiment and could even fade to a pretty disreputable pinkish color, depending on the dye used, etc.

We used to have this same discussion re: Napoleonics.

Mercer's memoirs of the Waterloo campaign describe British infantry thus
"Our infantry indeed, our whole
army appeared at the review in the same clothes
in which they had marched, slept, and fought for
months. The colour had faded to a dusky _brick-dust_
hue; their coats, originally not very smartly made,
had acquired by constant wearing that loose easy
set so characteristic of old clothes, comfortable to
the wearer, but not calculated to add grace to his
appearance. Pour surcroit de laideur, their cap is
perhaps the meanest, ugliest thing ever invented.
From all these causes it arose that our infantry ap-
peared to the utmost disadvantage dirty, shabby,
mean, and very small."

The colour had faded to a dusky _brick-dust_ hue;

So what colour would Mercer have referred to as "brick dust"?

If you Google brick dust, you get a range from terracotta to a red brown such as:

Great quotation swampster. I don't imagine we will find a specific reference very much earlier than that.

I think 'dusky' may be the clue, Major. Would terracotta or pink be too bright to fit that description? However, judging and identifying colour is a very subjective business and seems often to be in the eye of the beholder.

I think we're chasing mirages when it comes to matching colors. Colors weren't uniform back then, and they weren't as long lasting as they are now. If you could find an example that hasn't faded with age or use that would still be just one example, maybe consistent with that one batch of clothing but no guarantee that even that entire regiment would be the same color, or that the uniforms would wear evenly and look the same after the first rain storm. Sooner or later you have to give up, pick a color and get to painting.

From memory, that brickdust is very (very) close to the colour of the two Guardsmen's coats in the NAM.

Ah- that smells like progress!

So, are the NAM articles campaign-stained or somewhat old? I am guessing the latter.

As a matter of interest -

Did British regiments dye their distinctives regimentally. (my belief is that continentals such as Prussians did dye their collars and cuffs all together).

If so, would the officers' distinctives be treated the same?

This could result in the rank-and-file having differing hues of coats – but the whole unit tied together with commonly-hued collars and cuffs.

A few points. First of all, bricks are made of clay. Clay itself is a grey white colour and can be coloured by impurities in it. Most often the impurity is oxidized iron which is a red color, but brick from different sources can be any one of a variety of colours.

Secondly, before synthetic aniline dyes, wool, linen and cotton were dyed with natural materials. There is a lot of information on current crafting for dyeing wool. (We used to raise sheep and went through all the steps between shearing and weaving dyed yarn). You have two basic steps in dyeing. Soaking in a mortant (which is a chemical salt that chemically attaches to a site on the wool molecule) and then in a dyebath (where the dye attaches to that mortant and becomes pretty much waterfast). There are a variety of mortants and dyestuffs.
.
PLANTS WHICH DYE RED


Birch (Betula alba) Fresh inner bark


Bed-straw (Gallium boreale) Roots


Brazilwoods – various leguminous tree bark
Cochineal – (Coccus Cacti) Insect
Common Sorrel (Rumex acetosa) Roots


Dyer's Woodruff (Asperula tinctoria) Roots


Evergreen Alkanet (Anchusa sempervirens)


Gromwell (Lithospermum arvense)


Lady's Bedstraw (Gallium verum) Roots


Marsh Potentil (Potentilla Comarum) Roots


Madder (Rubia Tinctorum) Roots


Potentil (Potentilla Tormentilla) Roots
and the mortants alum, tin, chrome, iron and copper.

Madder was the cheap commerically available dye used for troos and cochinel was usually used for officer's coats. The madder red colour could have a variety of shades:

cf:
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"Madder

From at least 3rd Milennium BCE

From the roots of the Common Madder plant (Rubia tinctorum or in Asia and Japan Rubia cordifolia). Madder (aka Rose Madder) has been used for thousands of years in Europe and Asia to produce reddish dyes. Different parts of the root give a variety of shades from near yellow to red. Mordants are used to fix the colour and produce a range of shades. It may also be steeped in chemicals such as alcohol to produce intense colours. One technique, 'Turkey Red' originally from India, spread westwards reaching the British cotton mills in the late 18th century.

British 'Redcoat' uniforms in the 18th century were made with cloth dyed with madder. It was superceeded in the mid-19th century by chemical dyes.

Colours:

Alum mordant: red to orange-red
Copper mordant: red-brown
Iron mordant: brownish-purple
Tin mordant: red to red-purple"

Alum was used as the mordant for redcoat's uniform, but a variation in colours exists. Small amounts of other metal salts would get into the bath, from prior use and from the trace salts in the native water. What part of the madder plant and the details of its growth would also affect the color. Shortcuts in the time and temperature and concentration of the baths would also affect the final color. Bleaching in the sun and lack of colour fastness and grease left in the wool would also be there. Some variations are seen:

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Summary: a range of colours is okay.

najecki.com/repro/Wool.html

So, are the NAM articles campaign-stained or somewhat old? I am guessing the latter.

Sorry, I missed this. Yes, you are right – very, very old.

I though it was worth reviving this thread to post a link to this cheeky Troiani illustration which neatly contrasts, not accidentally I suspect, the elements in this discussion.

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I don't think that is a British soldier standing guard. This print is about Yorktown so it could be an American in brown face white.

Or it could be a British soldier in a really brownish red coat and the contrast with Cornwallis' scarlet coat makes it look more brown than red.

The sentry is a member of the 43rd Regiment of foot. It is my understanding that Don would like to repaint that as it shows the buttons are paired, but he later found out there is no evidence for that.

Or it could be a British soldier in a really brownish red coat and the contrast with Cornwallis' scarlet coat makes it look more brown than red.

Yes, Rally, I think that's probably what he intended.

Probably so. You might try contacting the artist to see what he intended. I hear he occasionally checks TMP.

Well, even if it wasn't an intentional demonstration, the comparison with Cornwallis' officer scarlet, the soldier's coat of 'brick red' and the brick building behind provide a convenient comparison, and demonstrate effectively the ambiguity of the references to 'brick red' and 'brick dust' made in relation to British soldiers' coats.

Does this help? Officer and sergeant on the left.

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Of course he did that on purpose. Come on, it's Don Troiani.

"They may not frighten the enemy…"

I was just talking to him last night. :-)

I'm sensitive like that.

@ Major B;

In this case I mean sealed pattern coats preserved in various museums.