Editor in Chief Bill | 05 Dec 2015 5:02 p.m. PST |
Top five movies (not mini-series, not TV shows) set during the American Revolution? |
Delbruck | 05 Dec 2015 5:23 p.m. PST |
Have there been five good AWI movies? I think some of the best were made for TV. |
KTravlos | 05 Dec 2015 5:27 p.m. PST |
1.Revolution 2.The Crossing |
Delbruck | 05 Dec 2015 5:35 p.m. PST |
1776 Drums along the Mohawk The Crossing was made for TV. Made for TV is easier (in no particular order): The Crossing John Adams George Washington Turn April Morning |
raylev3 | 05 Dec 2015 5:57 p.m. PST |
The Patriot…. (runs and ducks) |
dBerczerk | 05 Dec 2015 6:11 p.m. PST |
The Devil's Disciple was pretty good. |
Parzival | 05 Dec 2015 6:39 p.m. PST |
Revolution is dreck; worse than The Patriot , which at least has a discernible plot and overall story arc. The Crossing is terrific. Benedict Arnold:A Matter of Honor is good as well. But in general, the big movie studios are not good at the AWI. |
Dynaman8789 | 05 Dec 2015 6:46 p.m. PST |
Forget good, has there even been five movies of any quality? A number of tv shows and such but very few movies. |
MiniatureWargaming dot com | 05 Dec 2015 7:27 p.m. PST |
You have to go back a ways for non-tv movies to talk about Johnny Tremain Drums Along The Mohawk The Devil's Disciple The Howards of Virginia I show Williamsburg, The Story of A Patriot to my history classes. |
Keifer113 | 05 Dec 2015 8:31 p.m. PST |
The Patriot 1776 Mary Stillman's War All for Liberty The Scarlet Coat. I'd loved to add Sons of Liberty…But it was TV. |
Winston Smith | 05 Dec 2015 8:48 p.m. PST |
April Morning Sweet Liberty The Crossing Johnnie Tremaine Swamp Fox George Washington, the Indespensible Man Bill, I reject your exclusion of TV shows. And I loved the Disney mini series, before they were called miniseries. |
42flanker | 06 Dec 2015 3:01 a.m. PST |
I really enjoyed 'Lafayette.' |
ochoin | 06 Dec 2015 4:04 a.m. PST |
Is there any AWI movie shot from the viewpoint of the "Good Guys" (ie the British)? No offence to our American cousins but it's how we see the AWI. I'd like a movie that uses Loyalists as the heroes too. Possibly the worst aspect of the irremediably awful 'The Patriot' was the mindless Brit-bashing. |
42flanker | 06 Dec 2015 5:28 a.m. PST |
Difficult to pitch to Hollywood producers, I imagine. Deluded lackeys of tyrant king learn to be better men when chastened by steely- jawed Patriot revolutionists. And their women. Huzzah Might work. I also liked The Hector Heathcote show.
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Norman D Landings | 06 Dec 2015 6:10 a.m. PST |
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Supercilius Maximus | 06 Dec 2015 7:02 a.m. PST |
I also liked The Hector Heathcote show. Benedict Arnold always reminded me of Desperate Dan from "The Dandy". |
dantheman | 06 Dec 2015 9:45 a.m. PST |
For movies, 1776 is my only choice. Their isn't anything else worth considering. War movies rarely sell. For a British perspective, something based on the book 'Fusiliers' would be good, if well done. But as a subject it wouldn't grab the public. |
Gunfreak | 06 Dec 2015 9:51 a.m. PST |
Both the fusiliers and wellingtons rifles would mske great band of brothers like miniseries' but they would need a big budget. So we don't end up with a Sharpe like series. |
Cyrus the Great | 06 Dec 2015 11:44 a.m. PST |
I get all my AWI information from episodes of Sleepy Hollow. The AWI was just a smokescreen for a war between occult forces. The best book is Revere:Revolution in Silver where we learn that a lot of Hessian mercenaries are werewolves. |
ochoin | 06 Dec 2015 1:19 p.m. PST |
a lot of Hessian mercenaries are werewolves which is about as plausible as King George was a tyrant. |
Tabletopndice | 06 Dec 2015 2:44 p.m. PST |
Well said Ochoin, Fed up of seeing the "nasty brits" and the poor downtrodden goody goody patriots. |
Cyrus the Great | 06 Dec 2015 3:20 p.m. PST |
which is about as plausible as King George was a tyrant. It was worse than that… he was a Hanoverian!!! |
Winston Smith | 06 Dec 2015 3:51 p.m. PST |
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Ragbones | 06 Dec 2015 4:34 p.m. PST |
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Thomas Mante | 06 Dec 2015 5:07 p.m. PST |
There's only one good AWI movie: Well said that man! |
rustymusket | 06 Dec 2015 7:45 p.m. PST |
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nevinsrip | 07 Dec 2015 12:35 a.m. PST |
I'm still waiting for just one. The one that really gets it right. |
Old Contemptibles | 07 Dec 2015 12:45 a.m. PST |
"Revolution" I know, I know, but there are very few on the big screen. "The Crossing" is the best but doesn't fit the OP. |
Rudysnelson | 07 Dec 2015 9:21 a.m. PST |
I am glad Lancaster's the Devil's Disciple was mentioned. A fun little movie about Saratoga campaign. I do like The Patriot though not a good timeline of events. The poster was right about far more being done on the made for to front. Back in the 1970s there were several. I also have several of the re-enact or movies by lionhearted. |
nochules | 07 Dec 2015 12:33 p.m. PST |
@ochoin "Divided Loyalties" is a Canadian TV movie from the early 1990s about the Mohawk chief Joseph Brant which features Loyalists prominently as at least not entirely bad guys, IIRC. It is told from the Native American POV, so neither side is entirely good. It has been 20 years since I saw it, so I don't recall all the details. |
USAFpilot | 07 Dec 2015 10:03 p.m. PST |
Jimmy Carter wrote an excellent book on AWI from the perspective of the southern states. "The Hornets Nest". It might make a great movie someday. |
Early morning writer | 07 Dec 2015 11:36 p.m. PST |
Apparently some of you Brits are incredibly poor losers – even after nearly 250 years! Besides, it's Hollywood and we have to have an evil heavy and any American who wants to go home and sleep in his own bed who undertakes a revolution movie has to cast the Brits as the heavy. Plain common sense. You want a loyalist hero, have to get Brit (or maybe Canadian) financing – and expect it to probably flop in US market (but that is no given). The real challenge is finding a story from the revolution worth telling in movie format and also giving it 'relevance' for todays audience. No do that, no get money. Ain't nearly as easy as you think to find a story that can carry two hours of an audience's attention, especially contemporary audiences. What I don't get is well made period pieces seem to do decent box office but Hollywood avoids them like the plague – for a bit, and then makes another one. Strange phenomena. And Patriot isn't all that bad as a MOVIE (movie's aren't history!) and did a couple hundred million in box office. A great movie? No, but one of the few AWI movies out there. And I think most of the 'stink' on the movie comes from Mel Gibson haters. But I agree, we need more good AWI movies. But what are the 'watchable' stories from the war? Think hard upon your answer. |
ochoin | 08 Dec 2015 5:53 a.m. PST |
which features Loyalists prominently as at least not entirely bad guys @nochules That's exactly what I want. Movies for adults that feature nuances, not the childish Hollywood dribble where everyone is either Captain Pureheart (ie an American) or an Evil Villain (ie a foreigner). Fairy Tales have their place but one gets sick of an unremitting diet. |
42flanker | 08 Dec 2015 6:57 a.m. PST |
I don't think regret of absurd bias, dodgy mythmaking and historical distortion is a question of being 'bad losers.'Everyone knows that the British failed to prevent American independence. Everyone knows why. It wasnt cause the 'Patriots' were the Good Guys any more than the Loyalists and British were the Bad Guys. It's when the Hollywood mythmakers overlay a spurious moral dimension that prompts Brits to make fun of Patriot myth-making. It's also a response to the inward looking distortions of which U41 is the most egregious example, the latest in a tradition dating back to "Objective Burma!" However, entertainment in the end will indeed be the essential criterion. Mission movies, buddy movies, renewal & redemption/ reversal & recovery/ romantic love conquering adversity movies, coming of age movies, revenge movies- these are the plot formulae that Hollywood deploys, usually several together, the moulds into which Hollywood shoe- horns stories from whatever historic period they choose to plunder. Stony Point always seemed to me a good mission movie. The Paoli Tavern scrimmage is a small scale and dramatic episode set against the back ground of local forces and local men. Marrying the two might be interesting, given that Anthony Wayne links the two. Too bad Harrison Ford is getting a bit past it. Individuals caught between two sides are good human stories. Loyalists especially. Also soldiers who started on one side and ended up on the other,not necessarily for the best of reasons. Did anyone ever try to mke a film of Robert Graves'Sergeant Lamb novels? John Maitland is an interesting character, a heroic figure with a degree of moral ambivalence which makes a story interesting. Especially with Sir James Baird to hand, who made Colonel Tavington look like a Geography teacher. |
Old Contemptibles | 08 Dec 2015 8:42 a.m. PST |
"The Patriot" was a travesty to civilization and I don't have anything against Mel. It could have been awesome. I want Peter Jackson to do a remake of Waterloo! Imagine the same technology that created LOR battles used for a Waterloo movie. |
42flanker | 08 Dec 2015 11:42 a.m. PST |
Actually, I have to dissent there. I really don't like the way he used CGI to depict men being destroyed in their swathes with the ease of cartoon 'extras' in a computer game. Whatever the flaws of Spielberg's narrative style, in SPR and BoB he managed to show the individual cost of battle- although the danger is we may be become de-sensitized to that assault of sights and sounds and the undercranked, desaturated battle-scene may become a cliché. |
Gunfreak | 08 Dec 2015 1:55 p.m. PST |
You can do both. CGI for big scenes, but still need tens of thousands of extras. |
Keifer113 | 08 Dec 2015 6:28 p.m. PST |
Do Napoleonics fans hate Waterloo as much as AWI fans loathe the Patriot????? |
Supercilius Maximus | 08 Dec 2015 6:47 p.m. PST |
I think most treat it almost as unintended Monty Python, with Beaky and Boney essentially working their way through their most famous one-liners in place of anything resembling a script. And heaven only knows where the mid-battle tornado came from – half expected Dorothy's house to land on someone, leaving just a pair of ruby boots showing. |
Doug MSC | 09 Dec 2015 10:24 a.m. PST |
I liked the Patriot and so did all the people I know who are not wargamers. It was a fun movie if your not looking at it from a historical perspective and picking it all apart or if your a Brit. Ha, ha, ha, just teasing! I love the Brits and have many friends across the pond. The first time I brought a bunch of them over here to the States to visit battlefields, I took them to Yorktown first and told them this is where we start the tour! Loads of laughs all around. |
Bill N | 09 Dec 2015 2:44 p.m. PST |
It was a fun movie if your not looking at it from a historical perspective This is the problem some of us have with so called historical films. Most history buffs don't expect movies to be 100% faithful to history. However Hollywood's approach seems to be never let historical facts stand in the way of the story they want to tell. |
Virginia Tory | 10 Dec 2015 9:24 a.m. PST |
Hmmm. Tough question. April Morning isn't bad--one of the few I'm willing to re-watch. But in terms of accuracy? Realism? I can't really think of any I like that much, though I've seen a lot of them. There just aren't very many that I would watch again. Waterloo…I like it. It's certainly not what I'd call historically accurate, but at this point it's more of a nostalgia thing. The problem with films like The Patriot aka "Lethal Musket" is if you know anything--ANYTHING--about the period, it's hard to stomach. |
etotheipi | 10 Dec 2015 9:35 a.m. PST |
However Hollywood's approach seems to be never let historical facts stand in the way of the story they want to tell. History itself is a story, not just a collection of facts. Which facts are collected (and which are not) is influenced by the story as the collectors perceive it. So … the question is can Hollywood eschew the lurid, profitable, or easy win story for an informative one that is evocative of the lives of the people covered? Not often, I would say. |
Winston Smith | 10 Dec 2015 10:04 a.m. PST |
Hollywood is a business. The sole purpose is to produce a manufactured product that people will pay hard earned money to go to see. Nowhere in their mission statement appear the words "truth" or "historical accuracy". If such trivialities got in the way of a profit, the producers would be violating their fiduciary responsibilities to their stockholders. History is raw material. Much like wood or iron ore. It is very useful to screen writers because it gives a broad outline when they are writing scripts. They are free to use history as they please. They are even free to boast that " This the most historically accurate piece of crap ever filmed about the American Revolution!" You know. Freedom of speech and all that. Uniforms are expensive. Maybe I can rent a bunch for 6 weeks. That's a big business by the way. Or maybe I can hire a dozen reenactors who will come cheaper and bring their own uniforms. When I am fantasizing about AWI movies, I often think that Oliver Wiswell would make a great miniseries. But nobody would watch it. If you want history, buy a book. Even that is chancy. |
historygamer | 10 Dec 2015 11:50 a.m. PST |
While it was a short, and likely shown before feature length movies in its day, my vote goes Bunker Hill Bunny
link |
Bill N | 10 Dec 2015 2:14 p.m. PST |
Producing a movie that people are willing to spend their hard earned money to see and producing something that is, given the limitations of the media, reasonably accurate, are not mutually exclusive Winston. |
Early morning writer | 21 Dec 2015 12:23 a.m. PST |
"Hollywood's approach seems to be never let historical facts stand in the way of the story they want to tell." True story, repeated on TMP by me before – the Second historical consultant on the movie Titanic was asked by Cameron about which way to go if history got in the way of art? He said art would win. He got the job. The first one was more interested in historical accuracy. He got fired. This story from the Second consultant who lives (or did) locally and spoke at a meeting I was an attendant at. A movie is about telling a story about a character and a relationship that character has – maybe with someone, maybe with some thing. But it is not and it never will be about "history." As mentioned above, history can be the backdrop, but the story trumps. Or the movie sucks and the vast majority of the movie going audience will find something else to do. You sticklers here on TMP maybe add up to fifty people. Please tell me which studio, producer, or director should worry about you lot? And give me hard data to support your argument! |
42flanker | 21 Dec 2015 3:10 a.m. PST |
Of course, cutting convenient corners, compressing narrative elements- or even INVENTING- for dramatic effect, can be entirely valid- and the audience will be none the wiser. But that doesn't mean that historical accuracy- or confounding expectations/dispelling clichés will, per se alienate an audience. Those elements can indeed be creative in their own right, provocative, even, in a subversive way, educational. "Man, I never knew that! |
dBerczerk | 21 Dec 2015 6:51 a.m. PST |
The sad truth is that many people, having viewed a Hollywood adaptation of an historical event, come away believing that is how things actually happened. Film, as a vehicle for propaganda, can be a powerful vehicle for influencing a public unwilling to study their own history. |
Bill N | 21 Dec 2015 10:43 a.m. PST |
was asked by Cameron about which way to go if history got in the way of art? He said art would win. "Art" is simply another way of saying "doing what they want" EMW. It has never been a conflict between producing good movies with compelling stories involving interesting characters, their actions and relationships with others on the one hand and producing movies that are consistent with the historical narrative and reflect the major historical details on the other. The conflict has instead been between staying consistent with the historical narrative and reflecting major historical details, and telling the story the movie producers want to tell. It also isn't just us 50 TMP history fanatics who feel that way, or history fanatics in general. Many bibliophiles feel the same way when their favorite books are turned into movies. |