"Fokker DR1's v Camels, who would win?" Topic

Well, in as much as a wargame can tell us anything about that, we found out today!

The BatRep of today's game is on my Blog: link

Enjoy!

Great AAR HB! Fun game.
We played Canvas Eagles last night at the local club, with 13 people flying. I was in an Albatross DIII, got hit and gas tank exploded. Oh well!

Snoopy always gets shot down, so…….

"Fokker DR1's v Camels, who would win?"

Depends who is flying them…

Easy, Biggles always wins

Sorry, firmly in the 'Pilot is far more important than plane' camp.

:-)

I always remember Manfred von Richtofen's comment on the Fokker Dr1 (paraphrased) 'It can turn on a Deutchsmark, but cannot move!'

I agree, a plane is made great by its pilot, but a dreadful plane cannot be made good simply by having a good pilot!

But both planes were, in fact, very good aircraft in the right hands. Each has it's strengths and weaknesses.

If this was a fight between the Dr1 and outdated machine like the Sopwith Pup, I say the Dr1 would win since there's little difference in speed and the Dr1 is much more maneuverable than the old Pup…

Both the Dr1 and Camel were widow-makers in the wrong hands.

A bit of fun…

YouTube link

Thanks Timmo!

Thanks again, Timmo!

Agreed, thanks Timmo!

"Fokker DR III"???

Here's the skinny: Sopwith Camel, over 5,000 saw service. Fokker DR.I somewhat over 300 saw service. Camel, therefore, shot down more aircraft than any other type in the Great War. Without von Richthofen making the DR.I famous it would not have received the high level of attention that it subsequently did. The early production aircraft killed several notable pilots (e.g. Gontermann) through airframe failure. I'm not aware of a single airframe failure blamed for the death of a Camel pilot (torque related deaths, plenty). Performance was approximately equal. Where the DR.I out-climbed the Camel, the Camel was the better diver and was faster on the flat over most of its service altitude. Both types appear to have been equally tight turners. The DR.I rolled quicker than the Camel, the function of three shorter wings compared to two longer wings. All things considered equal, a one-on-one duel between the two would be up for grabs. My money is on Waldo Pepper! :D

Both were for experienced pilots only due to the torque or the rotary motor that tended to pull the plane to the right. Camel was front heavy as well. Many pilots died in training to fly the camel as it was tough to get out of a spin.

Both planes were lethal in the hands of an experienced pilot, rookie pilot game over.

I would call this an even fight overall. But if you are talking about overall effect in the war, hands down the camel.

"… rookie pilot game over."

Wasn't "Wop May" a rookie pilot? He managed to maneuver his Camel long enough to survive the Red Baron's attack….

Wop May was an exceptional pilot.

A lot would also depend upon what model of Camel we are talking about. The Camel saw service with at least five different engines of various outputs, the best being the Bentley rotary.

B

Speaking of engines for the Camel (I only know of Clerget, Le Rhone and Bentley), Leonard H Rochford ("I Chose the Sky") provides the interesting fact that Camel squadrons were organized on a single engine type. You had Clerget squadrons (like Rochford's brother's squadron) and Bentley squadrons, like Rochford's. It is my understanding that by the late war virtually all Camel squadrons were equipped with Bentley engines….

Hi GWA – Unearthed my copy of "British Aeroplanes 1914-18", by J M Bruce, from which the following info is copied regarding engines fitted to the F.1 Camel. Info inside parentheses = time to climb to 10k ft. Assuming that all the tested a/c were fitted with a similar type prop, this can give a rough ranking for actual power output of the respective motors. One cannot just go by the nominal power rating, as this very often related to the basic engine design and ignored various mid-production improvements (German Mercedes in-lines are notorious in this regard).

Clerget 130hp-5.1:1 compression (10m 50s)
Clerget 130hp-5.3:1 compression (8m 30s)
Le Rhone 110hp (9m 10s)
Le Rhone 180hp (9m 35s)
A.R.1 150hp (9m 50s)
Bentley B.R.1 150hp-5.2:1 compression (9m 25s)
Bentley B.R.1 150hp-5.5:1 compression (8m 50s)
Bentley B.R.1 150hp-5.7:1 compression (8m 10s)
Gnome Monosoupape 100hp (11m 50s) – training a/c only IIRC.
Gnome Monosoupape 150hp (8m 50s)

FWIW.

B

Isn't the A.R.1 a Bentley also? If so, only four not five engines. I've never heard of the Gnome being used in a Camel. Thanks for the info!

Hi GWA –
Yes, A.R.1 (Admiralty Rotary 1) was a Bentley manufactured motor.

BTW – Happy Holidays to all.

B