"Sohei hatamato--" Topic
12 Posts
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barcah2001 | 29 Nov 2015 10:30 a.m. PST |
Anyone hear of the warrior monk's hatamoto wearing sashimonos? |
Jamesonsafari | 29 Nov 2015 10:37 a.m. PST |
No. Hatamoto were the household retainers of a samurai, so a monk wouldn't have hatamoto per se. |
setsuko | 29 Nov 2015 10:39 a.m. PST |
Well, if a samurai powerful enough to have a group of hatamoto would be part of the armed forces of a temple, I wouldn't be surprised if said hatamoto were wearing sashimono. |
Jamesonsafari | 29 Nov 2015 12:53 p.m. PST |
Yes, but the hatamoto wouldn't be monks. |
BelgianRay | 29 Nov 2015 1:00 p.m. PST |
You're right there Jamesonsafari. So finally : no hatamoto for the monks. |
Glengarry5 | 29 Nov 2015 4:58 p.m. PST |
Hatamoto were worn by the Ikki-ikku, if you can count them as "monks". |
setsuko | 29 Nov 2015 10:44 p.m. PST |
But again, a large part of the armed forces of the temples were not monks per se, rather than warriors who aligned because of political or economical reasons, such as tax exemption status. |
cwlinsj | 29 Nov 2015 11:45 p.m. PST |
Hatamoto were upper retainers, they were officers. Officers did not wear common sashimono, but some did wear special ones to lead their units. Hatamoto were part of the feudal system and recieved land/koku for their services. In comparison, monasteries and Ikko Ikki movement did not operate based-on feudal administration. And although they did have samurai allies, these would not contribute hatamoto to serve the monks. Then again, Daimyos could also be monks, such as Uesugi Kenshin. But while Uesugi was a monk, he remained the head of his family/clan and retained all his feudal rights which included hatamoto servants. Other monks served in the invasion of Korea, but they served within feudal armies and not as part of any monk/religious force. |
setsuko | 30 Nov 2015 10:00 a.m. PST |
I think hatamoto could definitely wear sashimono, and they do in a lot of pictures (both contemporary and modern) I've seen of them. A good example is the images of Tokugawa Ieyasu's hatamoto, that has uniform sashimono in the screens and prints I've seen. And not all hatamoto were "officers" in the modern meaning of the term, but could fill roles such as guardsmen or messengers on the battlefield. In addition, the monastery forces did not just have samurai allies, but various samurai or non-clergy warriors would make up a large part of their forces, and they would be very hard to distinguish from a feudal lord's army. Adolphson wrote a great book, The Teeth and Claws of the Buddha, that exposes the myths of monastery forces made up of robe-clad monks and operating differently than other armies at the time. E: so my summary would be that if a samurai powerful enough to have hatamoto were to join the forces of a temple, for example for tax exempt status or any other political reason, they would not automatically change the way they dressed or the heraldry they used. However, it's not guaranteed they wouldn't, and I haven't seen an example of either thing happen. And medieval Japan was a very large and scattered area and it is impossible to say that there were some rules that everyone followed, but rather trends for things that were more likely. Especially in heraldry, where you don't see any solid rules until the Edo period, after the fighting died down and societal rules were enforced strictly and in uniform by the Tokugawa regime. So. Do your samurai wargaming minis as you like, since it's hardly the Napoleonic era with surviving manuscripts about how everyone dressed, fought and were organized. |
cwlinsj | 30 Nov 2015 10:42 a.m. PST |
Monks simply didnt have hatamoto as monasteries did not operate as a typical feudal entity. Hatamoto were upper feudal retainers and served as an officer class. This was a defined class, not just a job position. There are Japanese today with the surnames Hatamoto and Hata. By definition, monks would therefore not have "hatamoto", HOWEVER, they would have equivalents serving the same functions in their armies. Because of how eclectic monk and Ikki Ikki armies were, they could be wearing anything, plus their samurai allies would bring along their own trappings. |
setsuko | 30 Nov 2015 10:54 a.m. PST |
No, my point was that the armed forces of a monastery would hardly be made up of just monks, not that the monks themselves would be hatamoto. |
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