jaxenro | 27 Nov 2015 6:28 a.m. PST |
Some of the smaller sloops and brigs were armed almost exclusively by carronades like the Cruizer class with 18 32 pounder carronade's and 2 6 pounder long guns I imagine this gave the smaller ships tremendous power for their size (9 32 pounder guns in a broadside) but they would need to get in close to engage and not be able to stand off and try to pound the opposition? What was done, tactically, with these class of ships? |
Blutarski | 27 Nov 2015 7:10 a.m. PST |
Such carronade-armed ships first had to close into effective range of their guns – within 300 yards or so – in order to effectively engage. Once so situated, any action versus an opposing long gun armed ship of similar class would be a more or less foregone conclusion (other things being equal). The disparity in broadside weight would just be too great and the scantlings of such small vessels too weak. If the opponent of the day was a long gun armed vessel of a similar class it would likely first seek to flee, so an action would depend upon a successful pursuit. Clowes and James provide accounts of many such actions in their respective histories of the Royal Navy. B
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jaxenro | 27 Nov 2015 7:41 a.m. PST |
There were a few single ship actions between the Cruize class and some American brigs that were also armed with 18 to 20 32 pounder carronades but with a50% large crew. Be an interesting scenario as the distances would need to be close – maybe 3 English vs 2 America -more guns on one side larger crew on the other Or 2 on 1 or even 1 on 1 |
Virtualscratchbuilder | 27 Nov 2015 7:57 a.m. PST |
The saga of the USS Essex is a classic example of the plight of an all-Carronade ship. |
jaxenro | 27 Nov 2015 8:43 a.m. PST |
An all carronade ship against a regularly armed ship not so good but against their own type 1813 February 24 – USS Hornet vs HMS Peacock 1814 September 1 – USS Wasp vs HMS Avon 1814 June 28 – USS Wasp vs HMS Reindeer 1815 March 23 – USS Hornet vs HMS Penguin |
Yellow Admiral | 27 Nov 2015 2:56 p.m. PST |
Such carronade-armed ships first had to close into effective range of their guns – within 300 yards or so – in order to effectively engage. You think carronades were effective out to 300 yards? To me that sounds like a longish shot with a long gun. - Ix |
inverugie | 27 Nov 2015 3:54 p.m. PST |
Or for something nasty in a somewhat larger size, there's always the ex-EI HMS Glatton, a 56-carronade fourth rate (originally armed with twenty-eight 68-pounder carronades on the lower deck and twenty-eight 42-pounder carronades on her upper deck) that would really spoil your day if she got within range. link |
jaxenro | 27 Nov 2015 4:28 p.m. PST |
I'm thinking pistol range (whatever that is) would be preferable Seems like it would make for done close intense action andots of maneuvering to get close I am ordering a set of 18 and 20 gun brigs and sloops from GHQ to try it out 3 18 gun sloops to be the Cruizer class ships and 2 20 gun brigs for the Americans |
Charlie 12 | 27 Nov 2015 7:27 p.m. PST |
You think carronades were effective out to 300 yards? To me that sounds like a longish shot with a long gun. A 32pdr cannonade could make 300 yds (and a little more). But effective? Not so much. Aiming (and hitting) that far out would be a matter of sheer luck. Drop to half (or third) that range and you might be on the far outer edge of effective range. |
Blutarski | 27 Nov 2015 8:50 p.m. PST |
Respectfully disagree. Long guns were considered "effective" out to 600 yards in the sense that they could produce a material effect upon the target (see Boudriot). 600 yards also coincided with the point blank range of a single-shotted long gun of typical naval poundage. 300 yards was the point blank range -hence effective range- of a typical single-shotted medium poundage carronade (see Padfield). Musket Shot distance (ranging from 200 to 300 yards, depending upon reference) was considered fighting range in the RN during the Age of Sail. My personal opinion is that over the last century of the classic Age of Sail era, fighting range (i.e., Musket Shot distance) slowly crept from 200 to 300 yards as improved powder and the introduction of primers and gunlocks in place of linstocks appeared on the tactical scene. B |
Volunteer | 27 Nov 2015 10:26 p.m. PST |
The long gun ranges were considerably more than what is being stated here. 18, 24, and 32 pound guns had little difference in their effective ranges. (charge = proportion of powder to weight of shot) ------------Charge--Elevation----Yards RoundShot----1/4;-----2 deg;-----1,000 RoundShot----1/3;-----2 deg;-----1,200 RoundShot----1/4;-----4 deg;-----1,500 RoundShot----1/3;-----4 deg;-----1,600 RoundShot----1/3;-----7 deg;-----2,150 Double RS----1/4;-----2 deg;-------500 1 GrapeShot--1/4;-----4 deg;-----1,000 1 RS, 1 GS---1/4;-----2 deg;-------600 1 BarShot----1/4;-----2 deg;-------800 Carronades were better too – (in yards) ------Charge-Pntblnk-1deg.-2deg.--3deg.-4deg.--5deg. 12pdr--16oz----230----400---690----740----810----870 18pdr--24oz----270----470---730----800----870--1,000 24pdr--32oz----300----500---870----870----920--1,050 32pdr--42oz----330----560---830----900----970--1,087 42pdr--56oz----400----600---860----980--1,020--1,170 68pdr--88oz----450----650---890--1,000--1,000--1,280 |
War Artisan | 27 Nov 2015 10:43 p.m. PST |
Those are, of course, the distances they could throw a shot; not the distances at which they were actually likely to hit something they were aiming at. |
Volunteer | 28 Nov 2015 10:51 a.m. PST |
Yes, of course! Unless you were Phillip Broke! ;-) |
Yellow Admiral | 29 Nov 2015 3:37 a.m. PST |
Respectfully disagree. I respectfully disagree that you disagree. :-) Which is to say, I actually think the lot of us agree completely. You also said: Musket Shot distance (ranging from 200 to 300 yards, depending upon reference) was considered fighting range in the RN during the Age of Sail. This is precisely what I was driving at, and coastal2 and War Artisan (and I think Volunteer?) seem to concur. Shots beyond 500-600 yards were considered a waste of time, powder and shot, and this is about the maximum range of a long gun at 0° degrees elevation (point blank range) – thus, 500-600yd is essentially "long range". The RN thought that proper engagement range was about half this, which makes it basically the real "effective range", at least for broadsides (individual shots by chasers and such could be at longer ranges with more time taken to load, aim and time the firing). Since a carronade could fire out to about half long-gun distance at 0° elevation, I would expect carronades to also have roughly half the "long range" and "effective range" bands of long guns – though probably a little better than that in reality, for a variety of reasons. Certainly contemporaries considered a ship armed with only carronades to be at a distinct range disadvantage facing a ship with long guns, so if long guns were considered effective out to 300 yards and useless beyond 600, carronades must have been considered effective at shorter distances.
My personal opinion is that over the last century of the classic Age of Sail era, fighting range (i.e., Musket Shot distance) slowly crept from 200 to 300 yards as improved powder and the introduction of primers and gunlocks in place of linstocks appeared on the tactical scene. I can buy that. The ability to time a shot to the roll of the ship more precisely would improve the accuracy of individual shots, and generally improve the accuracy of the average gunner of limited experience (powder was too expensive for a lot of practice shooting…). - Ix |
Blutarski | 29 Nov 2015 6:01 a.m. PST |
Glad we sorted that out. ;-] B |
jaxenro | 29 Nov 2015 6:08 a.m. PST |
Yet with their shorter barrels Carronades were inherently less accurate and less able to correct for the roll of a ship Given a scale of 1:1200 (1" = 100') then 1" to 3" on the table seems about right for a all Carronade armed encounter Really compacts the space needed for a battle a 3' by 6' area would be more than plenty for two or three sloops |
Blutarski | 29 Nov 2015 8:05 a.m. PST |
….. At short ranges, carronades actually gave better accuracy than long guns due to their much reduced windage; one may argue the relative degree of difference, but it was nevertheless technically true. Was overall gunnery more accurate at 100 yards than at 300 yards? Yes. And that was true for all gun types – carronades, long guns and the later short Gover, Blomefield and Congreve gun designs. But the primary influencing factor for all these guns within that short range band was pointing error, not their respective ballistics. 200-300 yards was a perfectly serviceable range for carronades. B |
KniazSuvorov | 29 Nov 2015 8:20 a.m. PST |
With a long gun, you could fire into the sea on the ship's downroll, and a solid shot would ricochet up into the hull of the ship you were firing at. Were carronades capable of doing the same thing? |
jaxenro | 29 Nov 2015 3:17 p.m. PST |
Ricochet shooting? How accurate was that? I think my original premise still holds as it seems effective range was 300 yards or less (9" at 1:1200) so a decent game would fit on a small 3' x 6' table with 2 to 5 brigs/sloops armed with Carronades and decent rules |
Red Line | 30 Nov 2015 5:56 a.m. PST |
The Carronade was orriginally designed for the East India Company and was popular with its captains as it required fewer crew and weighed less than a long gun, thus allowing a heavier cargo to be carried. Company regulations tried to limit the carronade from Indiamen armament for 800 and 1200 ton vessels but the regulations didn't apply to the 500 ton class and the carronade remained popular with a high proportion of 500 ton vessels so armed. The weapons seem to have been 18 and 12pdrs |
Blutarski | 30 Nov 2015 6:40 a.m. PST |
Ricochet fire by ships at sea (and also by suitably sited coastal batteries) with smoothbore ordnance was not uncommon practice. It is mentioned by Boudriot as a standard gunnery technique in the French navy and was used by the USN as late as the ACW in conjunction with their big smoothbores. Under good conditions – smooth sea, low siting of the gun relative to surface of the sea, gun elevation not exceeding about 2 degrees – it was reasonably accurate and offered a surprisingly long reach; a 32pdr long gun was reputed to have a maximum range of up to 3,000 yards under optimal conditions in ricochet fire. However, much of the energy of the shot would be lost at longer distances and waves of any material height would progressively affect directional accuracy. According to one source, direct fire was apparently preferred at ranges less than 600 yards or so. B |