"Turrets and Minerollers" Topic

I was getting a lesson on how to take pictures of models from a friend yesterday.
Lesson 1 was don't take pictures of white models. Paint them grey first.
Lesson 2 was nowdays its not the camera its the lighting that is most importtant.
Lesson 3 was from my ex serving REME mate who when posing the picture of the Leapoard 2A with mine rollers, gun facing front was that I should not be taking fantasy pictures. If you are mine rolling the gun has to face rear. To do otherwise risks the gun, the first time the roller hits a mine. While it makes perfect sence it must be very worrying for the crew having the less protected rear side of the turret facing forward. When asked about this the answer was simple, you never roll minefields without a lot of cover. I assume this is true for all nations and perhaps why the Germans themselves don't use minerollers on Leopards but use their engineering vehicles to do the sweeping. However Canadian and Australian Leopards do appear to have mine rollers available but the photos show the gun forward. Its maybe why the Germans don't have mine rollers on Leopards but only use mine clearance equipment on specilalist engineering vehicles. Forther insight into this interesting conundrum are welcome.

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mayvbe the last one with the gun to the side is a compromise keeping the gun more or less out the way but having turret side armour to the front.

Another thing to consider is that tanks with mine rollers do not spend all their time in a minefield. I have watched them being attached, needed a truck a crane and a fair amount of work, not something you would do under fire in front of a minefield so I suspect the tank carries them a fair bit without using them especially if quick minefields (rocket launcher, bar mine layer or minelets) are expected.

Another thing to consider is that in a conflict like Afghanistan they are used somewhat differently then playing their part in the traditional, plow to breach, then roll to prove, all under smoke and covering fire Cold War method.

Should have added, there is quite a bit of variation in doctrine and tactics for this across countries. The approach is very dependent upon the situation as well so there is not any hard and fast rule. Some countries are willing to risk an AEV to breach, some prefer to multiple purpose a gun tank. There is even debate about when is the best time to put on the rollers since they impair a tanks performance.

When I was in both the 1st and 2d IDs, the rollers were kept on flatbed trucks by the engineer battalions and only issued to tank companies for specific operations. Rollers and plows seriously degrade a tank's maneuverability and put a lot of strain on the drive train. We installed the rollers and plows just before the operation and keep them out of the way until needed. For a combat breach, the attackers are divided into 3 groups: security, breaching and assault. The security force seizes the near side of the obstacle and suppresses/smokes any bad guys in the area. The breaching force then moves up, makes the actual breach and stops on the other side. The assault force then moves through the breach and keeps going. Once the plows and rollers are no longer needed, they are jettisoned, to be picked up later by the engineers. And yes, we kept the gun pointed to the front sides. We weren't supposed to because the thermal shroud is only fiberglass, but like posted above, the side turret armor is stronger than the rear and the security force may not have gotten all the bad guys.

Route clearing during insurgency operations is a whole different animal. Because prolonged use of a roller will quickly kill an engine or transmission, a specialty vehicle is preferred, but not always available. The gun is normally over the back deck since the prospect of needing it is limited.

Cold Steel pretty well nailed it! I was in the 1AD and 2ID as a combat engineer, and our preferred method was to breach with a MICLIC when possible, then proof using a CEV or tank with rollers. Utilizing a tank with rollers as part of COIN route-clearance was also less preferable to using an actual CEV or Grizzly breacher.

At the lower level, the breaching force in a battalion/TF was usually a tank platoon, 2 pairs of tanks with 1 roller and 1 plow. The plows would breach the minefield and the rollers would proof the lane.

Re WW2 methods: I once spoke to three former Crab flail-tank crewmen at Bovington – two from 22nd Dragoons and one from Westminster Dragoons. They were firmly of the opinion that their regiments universally broke SOP and instead had their guns trained 90 degrees left or right while flailing, in order to cover the flanks and to be able to bring the gun quickly into action to the front, should the urgent need arise.

That said, they also told me that they never had AA MGs fitted and never carried external stowage, as it would get damaged by flying mine/flail fragments and stones… Then I found a photo of a 22nd Dragoons Crab in the act of flailing, with .50 Cal AND external stowage… :)

Gentlemen,
That is really useful information! Looks like the compromise is the tank turret at say any where between 6 and 9 O'clock.

One comment that is interesting, which is better if its possible to deply either, rollers or plows and why?

Do I insist on a gun roll every time I hit a mine? Proably not, we already have a low level risk of damage while rolling plowing.

In our game we aim to push players to do a lot of thinking tacticaly. Worrying about small risks slows the game down. Speed of play has its own impact on plausibility.

I wouldn't worry about the plows except for specialized vehicles. They don't work too well on paved surfaces, so will have limited use in a European environment. Even on hard-packed unpaved areas, they are slow and brutal on drive trains.

Cold steel,
Surely one the of the the strategies in a war is to use the mine clearing vehicles to clear off road routes? This was what most of what the Sherman flail vehicles did in Normandy in WWII. In terms of rural terrain, the hedge density is no worse now than then, so clearing off road would be the mine plows major job. Clearing roads may be more common due to minelet issues but off road plowing I would have thought was still a key job?

Plows fell out of favor vs. rollers, except in the desert. Just about every road in Germany was paved by the early 80s, so there was no need for route clearing with plows. There were supposedly enough specialist vehicles with plows for the anticipated need.