"I'm running out of armies" Topic

I have many armies. But I'm running out.

I do a fair amount of GM'ing at conventions and it seems they use up armies faster and faster. The wear and tear on the armies is fierce and it takes a long time to refurbish and repair a lot of them. Uncaring games, uncoordinated persons, and grasping, crushing, damaging hands wreck the units, knock weapons from hands, colors from their bearers and bend and break figures quite fast. I had a few thirty years war armies I used in conventions in the 90's and I'm still repairing them. Of course now that I'm retired I hope to be able to put more time in, but the Renaissance armies I used before are still in need of repair. Now the 18th century armies are showing the wear and tear of trucking them around.

Of course when you do these things you ALWAYS want to make improvements and that's a lot more difficult and time consuming than just regluing and re-soldering. For example, on the Thirty Years War Stuff I wanted to make a few Swedish Regiments in those weird "cross" formations. That requires painting a few more figures to flesh out the old regiments. Then there's the things you want to scratchbild…

It's like shoveling snow with a teaspoon in a blizzard I tell ya!

The wear and tear on the armies is fierce and it takes a long time to refurbish and repair a lot of them. Uncaring games, uncoordinated persons, and grasping, crushing, damaging hands wreck the units, knock weapons from hands, colors from their bearers and bend and break figures quite fast.

Really? In that case I am glad that I have never been to a US wargames convention. Anybody mistreating figures in that way at a UK show would get short shrift from the organisers. I have been involved for years in running all sorts of games at UK shows and have NEVER experienced anything such as you describe and as far as I am aware neither has anyone else running games at a UK show.

Battle damage happens, especially with those figures with glued on weapons/shield. A couple of years back, my new and improved (larger) Roman army was being used by a buddy of mine. He has as much gaming experience as I do…another old veteran. He was reaching for one of his units, passing over a unit of Triari. His shirt sleeve just caught the tips of the spears and down all 4 went…just the spears. They are still in the box waiting to be replaced. I've fielded them without spears for a while now. Accidents do happen, even to the best of us.

BTW, a little be of gaming etiquette explanation, especially to newbies (how to handle figures, behave etc), goes a long way and will take only a couple of extra minutes.

Accidents do happen, even to the best of us.

True, there is the odd case of incidental damage from time to time, but certainly not the wholesale vandalism as described by the OP!!

What Major B said …

I've been doing participation games (usually more than 10 shows a year) for over 25 years (some of those 2-day shows, and running the game maybe 3 or 4 times a day … so what's that? over 1,000 games, easily … ) …

Not all just in the UK … Holland too, Belgium, USA (Historicon) etc. … but mostly nearer home.

And there are inevitably running repairs required – but nothing untoward … Then again, I renew my projects regularly and the games I run mostly only go 18 months, tops, before they get replaced just by evolution (wargaming never stands still) …

Although sometimes we revive older figures

I'm not too precious about my cherished collection but have never seen the kind of harsh treatment you describe (generally I think wargames are quite respectful and certainly parents at shows are conscientious less their kids get too carried away) ..

Phil

MajorB,

Sharp words with no basis in evidence.

What are the demographics?

Does this include children with/without supervising parents?

Newbies who have not been informed to pick them up by the base and not the figures?

Are the figures difficult to handle in massed formations without contacting flags, Samurai back banners, spears/pikes/pila//javelins?

A little bit of battle damage makes it a veteran unit to be cherished.

The worst that my figures receive is usually things like broken swords or flag poles rather than any serious breakage.

Sharp words with no basis in evidence.

Only the evidence (like YesthatPhil) of attending many shows over many years.

What are the demographics?

Not quite sure what demographics has to do with it, but FWIW: The average UK wargamer is anywhere between 20 – 80 and ethinaclly diverse. There is quite a number of children and teenagers at most UK shows.

Does this include children with/without supervising parents?

Yes.

Newbies who have not been informed to pick them up by the base and not the figures?

Newbies in the UK seem to have sufficient common sense to be careful with models that are not theirs.

Are the figures difficult to handle in massed formations without contacting flags, Samurai back banners, spears/pikes/pila//javelins?

I have seen figures from every period of history as well as Fantasy and SciFi in use at many shows over many years with NO evidence of damage wilful or otherwise by the punters.

My stuff has been to several conventions with no damage. The only damage I have ever suffered is from (my) children messing around where they shouldn't. My then 10 yr old son once caused three big shelves of 1/600 ironclads to collapse, for example.

Nothing more than the usual broken bayonet or knocked loose spear.

I have run probably several dozen games at conventions in the U. S. I had one 20mm goat disappear. I cannot remember a single repair I had to make.

I should add that a lot of the games I have run have been with heavily converted Foundry Plains Indians. Some have had plastic feathers added all over their headdresses. Before the game starts, I warn the players about some of the Indians being rather delicate. I ask them to be careful with them. I ask them to pick them up one at a time, not in a bunch. So far everyone has been most cooperative.

The occasional child that has played does scare me.

If I had players that behaved the way Ottoathome has described them, I would throw them out of the game.

Tom

I also have a number of armies – but the only ones that seem to get battle damage are the Ancients, which is due to riders falling off horses/shields falling off/weapons dropping from hands

So much so that I take SuperGlue to games when I am bringing my Ancient armies

My SYW, ACW and Pulp/interwar/Sci Fi armies weather battle pretty well

Stuff happens. People are generally careful with figures and it is only occasionally that you have someone not be careful with figures. Still accidents happen.

I always tell my players at the beginning of my games that the figures are fragile but if they do break that happens and they shouldn't worry about it. Generally most broken things can be fixed. They are meant to be gamed with and with several hundred figures on a table the odd one getting chipped or similar is not really that big of a deal.

The only time I had figures damaged at a convention game, the other players ran the guy off.

Now the container holding 200+ 28mm ECW infantry I dropped upside down is a different story.

Now the container holding 200+ 28mm ECW infantry I dropped upside down is a different story.

Ow. That very thought hurts my heart. Hope it was not to bad.

Dear Major B.

Wherever did you get the idea that this was from purposeful vandalism?

You are being too harsh. The damage was never intentional by the participants. It is the normal wear and tear of people having fun. They aren't means spirited or vandals, things just happen, and carting figures hundreds of miles to a convention in boxes where they are packed adds its own wear and tear. Besides, in England as I've heard you don't have participation games where anyone can come up and play, you restrict it to demonstrations and dioramas. In America we are much more open and friendly.

People play games and move things and in any use there will be breakage. It's the normal way of things. They aren't holy relics. They're toys meant to be played with. I don't mind the repair, as Alte Fritz says the casualties here and there are the scars of good games. I don't mind. Repairing them is a labor of love, no matter how frustrating it might be.

The point is that horses legs sometimes weaken and break, the jostling and breaking of bayonets is part of the problem.

I usually don't have a problem with dropping boxes. I devise a locking system that holds them firmly in place. It's also one of the reasons I mount all the troops on big stands.

Otto you are wrong to make a sweeping statement that British conventions only have demonstration games and no games that allow participants .There are lots of participation games at British cons and I have played in many

I was at the "Warfare" Reading Convention on Nov 14 and the participation games were very active in encouraging players to step up and have a go. Several were very short and lasted about an hour so a lot of people played including pre-teen kids.

The worst offenders are not those in participation games but the so called experts that go from game to game picking up figures to examine paint jobs without permission

I am hoping to run some convention games this year. I am expecting to have some figure damage, but I am sure it will be accidental. I was thinking of even use gloss varnish for my figures, because it is more durable. But like the matte look too much to go that far, yet.

It is the normal wear and tear of people having fun.

Uncaring games, uncoordinated persons, and grasping, crushing, damaging hands wreck the units, knock weapons from hands, colors from their bearers and bend and break figures quite fast.

That does not sound like normal wear and tear to me. Not here in the UK anyway. And as others have said we have plenty of participation games at UK shows and they are what I was referring to, not the silly "demo" games and "diorama" games.

I am simply saying that behaviour by game participants such as you describe in your OP would not be tolerated here.

When I used to run demos for Dark Age Ganes, I knew my figures would be mishandled, dropped, stepped on, etc. It happened. More than I expected. What I truly did not expect were things getting stolen. The abuse I could handle and repair. People stealing my pissed me off.

I knew my figures would be mishandled, dropped, stepped on, etc. It happened. More than I expected.

I am truly horrified that US gamers not only expect this kind of behavious but that it actually happens.

What I truly did not expect were things getting stolen.

That is terrible and again would not be tolerated here in the UK.

What I truly did not expect were things getting stolen.

That is terrible and again would not be tolerated here in the UK.

With stealing, it's difficult for the offended party to have the luxury of being tolerant or not becaue they very rarely know who the thief was.

This kind of point scoring on a nation vs nation basis is really ridiculous.

Doug

With stealing, it's difficult for the offended party to have the luxury of being tolerant or not

At the very least the theft should be reported to the police and investigations carried out. I believe US conventions require registration so the culprit is one of an identified group of people. (Which just makes the theft even more stupid!)

This kind of point scoring on a nation vs nation basis is really ridiculous.

Point scoring? Not a bit of it. I am just horrified at the apparent lack of respect for other people's property reported in this thread. That it seems to be mostly in the US is incidental.

I had a game on Friday night with 15 players and hundreds of 40mm figures. By the end of the game, two shields needed to be re-glued, one lance came loose and needed re-gluing and one horses tail broke off and was easily repaired. No big deal. The players ages ranged from 13 yrs. old to 60. Most in their late teens. OF course we explain to the guys how to handle the figures before the game starts and they all are very conscientious of how they handle them. It probably helps that they want to be invited to come back and play again.

This kind of point scoring on a nation vs nation basis is really ridiculous.

I agree, except that here in New Zealand people at conventions must register, be DNA tested, pass a three day course on figure handling and table etiquette and are under CCTV surveillance at all times. At least if they are playing with my figures.

Seriously, I have had the odd bit of damage but nothing stolen – although I have heard of it happening. I think if you take models to a show there will be repairs to be made.

I have been more destructive of my figures than other fumble fingered gamers – dropping units between cabinet and table, bent bayonets, car incidents (braking heavily to avoid a crash with boxes of miniatures in the back – not good) and worst of all throwing stuff in the bin during a fit of depression.

Dear List

When you take the same army to conventions three to five times a year for 8 or 9 years running, the damage builds up. As I said not only from use but from the haulage and dunnage of boxing and packing.

I never had anything stolen though. Part of the reason is that I mount my armies on big stands, of 36 men (28 privates, 2 officers, 2 Nco's 2 Color, and 2 Musicians on one big 4" by 8" stand which is very hard to slip into your coat pocket. Besides the pikemen all have undulled piano wire pikes which are razor sharp and leave a trail of blood if someone tries. Makes them hard to steal, Oh yeah, they're 30-33 mm.

Over the years I've learned. All my cavalry now are "reinforced" when painted. I drill a 1/16" hole through the base into the underside of the horse and run a .501 size piano wire strut through the base and expoxy it into the horse and into the base. Sometimes I even gough a channel in the underside of the base to accommodate a right angle reinforce. This prevents the horse from bending at the ankles. I do the same with the NCO figures on the flanks and one or two infantryman also to prevent them from bending when people grasp them. I also now leave an inch border in front if the troops are in three rank firing positions to protect the bayonets and muskets.

It pays.

Boy, it doesn't take much to start an argument around here lately, does it?

As I build units and terrain, I build a storage container for each piece that's designed to handle travel – stout cardboard boxes, with magnetic strips glued in, and steel bases for everything that hold fast to the magnets. Nonetheless, damage and maintenance are constant, even when I play with my toys at home, by myself. I'm just a clumsy sumgun, and models are fragile.

Right now, over in the corner, there's a 15mm Inca army that's waiting for repair after a cat pushed its storage box off a shelf. The cat lived, but only because she was fast. It was two weeks before I could bear to open the box lid and look at the wreckage.

All part of the hobby.

By the way, nice to see you posting again, Otto. Hiya.

Hmmm. The big staged single base with 36 miniature on one basing. That could be the issue as the large object basing causes issues to pick the single base up and move about. Even being careful the fingers could apply pressure to the edge miniatures thereby causes stress points. Plus the weak pikes and horses if slightly mishandled have the weight of many miniatures and base weight to contend with. Small bases grouped together disperse the weight to the lowest weighted miniature base and allow some inter unit miniature movements to relieve the stresses on the tabletop handling.

"Boy, it doesn't take much to start an argument around here lately, does it?"

Zippy, I disagree and want to argue with you over your point! :)

Dear Wargame rabbit.

That's why the figures on the edge have the reinforcing hard wire mandrels and struts.

Otto

Hmmm. The big staged single base with 36 miniature on one basing. That could be the issue as the large object basing causes issues to pick the single base up and move about.

Yeah, thinking about it, I think I agree with you. The sheer weight of 36 models on a single base will make handling quite difficult even when being careful. I'm inclined to think you would get less problems with smaller bases.

I saw at a big Waterloo game a few months back a twelve figure French cuirassier unit on a single base. I thought it looked fantastic. My second favourite basing behind the circular bases (3 figs to a base) that – and the name eludes me at the moment I am sorry – are posted here on occasion.

The main problem with a 36-figure base is that if dropped the figure at the point of contact has the weight of 35 other figures bearing on it.

And all this, Otto, from something seems written with a wee bit of tongue in the cheeK!

And Major B, are you really claiming such saintliness for the whole of the UK gaming world? Bit much to believe. And, clearly, as posted above, even UK gamers get figures damaged in play.

Afraid I can relate to having figures stolen – only one stand of 3 artillerymen at a convention and of no great intrinsic value but it still stings. And, more to the point, makes me hesitant to put figures out in public again. (I have, but with that hesitation.)

Maybe the answer is WarIn 15 mm's way, have a private collection for personal entertainment. Or only share with close and trusted friends. But that looses the camaraderie. I'll take a damaged figure or other items and risk the loss to retain the camaraderie.

"Maybe the answer is WarIn 15 mm's way, have a private collection for personal entertainment. Or only share with close and trusted friends. But that looses the camaraderie. I'll take a damaged figure or other items and risk the loss to retain the camaraderie."

I usually paint special figures to run games at shows, and keep my 'normal' collection for games at the club.

That is part of the fun of doing show games, they then get recycled once we've got bored running that particular game.

And Major B, are you really claiming such saintliness for the whole of the UK gaming world? Bit much to believe. And, clearly, as posted above, even UK gamers get figures damaged in play.

I can only go by my own experience and that of other wargamers I know. Damage to figures used at shows seems to be a minor problem here in the UK and no more than usual wear and tear and appears to be nothing like the levels described in the OP and a couple of other posts on this thread. And I have heard no reports of theft at a show for many years.

Dear Early Morning writer.

I did use a bit of hyperbole but not too much. Hauling armies to convention and putting on several games during the show does add up. You will notice also that I DID say that each repair and restoration session adds improvements and building which spins out the process.

As for the detractors of my large stands, no one seems to have the least problems with them, drop them or be unable to use both hands when moving them. I have thoughtfully made the bases 3/16 thick which is more than enough to grab on to.

@Ottoathome
In your OP you stated:
"Uncaring games, uncoordinated persons, and grasping, crushing, damaging hands wreck the units, knock weapons from hands, colors from their bearers and bend and break figures quite fast. "

Yet now you say some of that was hyperbole? So which bits were hyperbole and which true?

(BTW I'm assuming that "Uncaring games" should say "Uncaring gamers"?)

Also there seems to be a difference between damage incurred by "Hauling armies to convention and putting on several games during the show" and "grasping, crushing, damaging hands wreck the units, knock weapons from hands, colors from their bearers and bend and break figures quite fast."

Occasionally, just occasionally, one gets the impression there might be the odd player or two out there who may not be a huge bundle of laughs to game with.

Dear Silurian

Nomen est Omen.