"Carnage & Glory ECW rules?" Topic

I have both C&GII "Pike and Shot" and Computer Strategies "The Gunpowder Revolution" Of the two I prefer the interface of Gunpowder Revolution.

Pro's and con's of a computer moderated rule system is up to the gaming groups preferences.
Do you enjoy rolling dice?
Are you comfortable without knowing how the rules determine success or failure?
How about not being able to alter any of the game mechanics?
If these items are important you probably won't enjoy the experience.
Do you want the system to track factors that are important fatigue, orders, morale at various command levels and apply all the modifiers and track everything?
Fog of war by not knowing exactly what is happening to enemy troops?
Tired of Buckets of Dice and math problems instead of tactical decisions.
Then you might prefer the computerized approach.

Guy

I have used the Carnage and Glory pike and shot rules for both ECW and more extensively for battles involving the Polish Commonwealth, Russia, Sweden and the Ottoman Empire.

Guy's list of pro's and con's is a pretty good summary, although I'm not sure exactly what he means by not being able to know how the rules "determine success or failure". Nigel Marsh, the creator of the CG system, maintains an active website and Yahoo group and has been more than willing to describe in detail the internal mechanics of the system..i.e. how the rules determine success and failure.

The system itself includes a significant amount of information that can explain why certain things happen. For example during the melee sequence the system provides key information about each unit involved, number of men, morale status, fatigue status, etc. that can provide the players with important insights into the ultimate outcome. As the GM I will summarize that information to the players before resolving the combat and that has assisted in a broader understanding among the players.

Similar comment on the game mechanics…if the comment is related to the relative importance of factors such as morale and fatigue, while it is true you can't modify them within the system, Nigel is open suggestions for modifying the system on a regular basis to make it better.

The dice issue is unavoidable but if I want to roll dice I will go to Vegas.

The level of support and discussion for the Carnage & Glory system is great. Nigel even sent me a patch to test a 3:2 shot to pike ratio for Swedish TYW units. I have enjoyed the ECW, Napoleonic and ACW systems and find they work great for conventions since players don't have learn to run any stats or interpret die rolls they can just concentrate on moving and shooting. Good tactical decisions are always rewarded even without being able to peak behind the curtain to see who's pulling all the levers.

One of the con's not listed is that if you can't handle troops that won't make suicidal charges, fire at full effect for turn after turn, stand and die to the last man this is not the game for you. The accumulation of fatigue, ammo usage and moral loss is not something all players are used to having to deal with and it can be frustrating when your troops won't do what you the "God General" want them to.

Ken:

Still searching for the perfect pike and shot rules after all these years I see!!

I have the C&GII ECW set but usually play it at conventions with Nigel and the C&G gamemasters. Several years ago Nigel ran Nasby at Cold Wars or Fall In and IMO the system worked well for the ECW. My advice would be to come to CW and sign up for some events if not ECE try Polish vs. Ottomans or other renaissance era games.

Gunpowder revolution is a nice system but I think C&G is much better supported and has a solid group of supporters.

Eric

As far as how the ECW/TYW system handles things differently, there is of course the various types of cavalry and their individual tactics. I think the system does a great job of representing Caracole tactics of Reiter's, Harquebusiers and Cuirassiers. While the early war Parliamentarian cav really don't stand much of a chance against the Royalist Cavaliers, the stats can be changed to make it a much more even fight for the latter years. In a couple of battles I've even had the Royalist player lose all his cavalry units as they chased the enemy off the board and left the infantry unsupported.

Infantry are inputted into the system with varying degrees of shot to pike and armor levels so of course a heavily armored pike heavy unit will get a better melee result. Point blank fire from a shot heavy unit can be withering and a "may not advance without an officer attached" will leave a pike heavy unit very vulnerable if they try to stand and shoot it out.

One tweak I would recommend is adjusting the army moral level since upwards to half an ECW army can be cavalry which seems to always be engaged first and leaves player commanding infantry not much to do if the army morale is at break point before they ever get involved.