"What is so called 20mm scale??!!" Topic

TMP has a page that explains the various scales. I shall focus only on the so called 20mm range featured on this page.
1 to 87, 1 to 72 are not 20mm, the first ring too small, the second too large. If you take a 1 to 87 figure and compare it with a 1 to 76 and a 1 to 72, you can easily see the differences.
This is exactly mirrored in any comparison of 25mmto 28mm, all other attempts to explain away the differences (the small man-large man argument except it doesn't work because there's no small weapon-large weapon of the exact same type)
It is really strange when someone fields a force of vehicles mixed among these so called 20 mm scales
It is understandable because the scales, even the same scale, vary among the manufacturers not to mention the oddities that some companies do such as producing infantry in 1 to 72 and vehicles in 1 to 100 in the same line. This is compound ed by the figures going out of production, the changes in the figure line, and the lack of figures in say 1to 87. So the purist, or rather the gamer hoping to avoid too much mixing haunts the flea
markets in search of, say, RoCo minitanks

Usually, 1/72 – 1/76, IIRC.

Back in the day, 20mm figures (all figures really) were measured to the top of the head. But what is the top of the head when a man is wearing a helmet with a plume or a stove pipe hat? So they started measuring to the eye level. 20mm figures are 20mm to the eye. A 1/72 figure is about 23mm-24mm tall…which is pretty close to 20mm to the eye. A long way of saying I agree with Mako11.

One must choose whether to get bent about a very small difference in mm that won't bother your figures a whit, or be able to play games politely with gamers who simply want an enjoyable experience. If one chooses the life of a purist they will likely live a solitary life of correct scales, donating their collection someday to a museum they deem worthy, and spend their days until that time searching for their likewise bitter fellows to grace with their presence around the gaming table.

Back in the day, 20mm figures (all figures really) were measured to the top of the head.

Not true. Originally, 20mm, 30mm, 40mm, 54mm etc. were not intended to be actual measurements, but rather to approximate the scale height of an average man. The figure scales were keyed to the popular model railroad gauges. 20mm was HO, thus 1/87. 30mm was S, 1/64. 40mm was O which was 1/43.5. And 54mm was #1, 3/100, which happened to be what William Britain made for toy trains. Later 25mm came in for OO, 1/76, and 15mm for TT, 1/120.

And I'm convinced the switch to measuring to the eyes was adopted for marketing reasons. Slightly larger figures could have more detail and would look more impressive ("heroic scale"), but if they were a larger scale, the intended customer would not buy them. Hence "we measure to the eyes".

It's 1/72 and 1/76. End of story.

20mm is a size, not a scale. A machine gun in 1/72nd scale is exactly 72 times smaller than the real thing (unless you believe what Valiant prints on their boxes)

"Heroic scale" Doesn't look impressive – it just looks like a bunch of overweight middle aged reenactors out for the weekend, not 1940's era teenagers living on short rations in the field.

As an overweight, middle aged reenactor myself, I know the difference!

As above, 20mm is a measurement, not a scale and in fact these days it isn't even that, but more of a category. Vehicles from 1:87 to 1:72 and figures roughly the same size as Airfix ones.

Just like when I started wargaming all those decades ago.

Well the one thing they aren't is 20mm

The way I remember it is Airfix started with HO/OO figures, and then ESCI came along with 1/72nd scale figures. The Airfix figures were then referred to as 20mm.

"20mm Scale" as mentioned above is generally accepted in the hobby as 1/72 and/or 1/76 minis. Don't let the height of the figure upset you too much as long as it is close. Someone recently posted a ling to some pre or early war WWII army pictures. One was a comedic shot of a soldier barely 5 feet tall standing with another who was all but 7 feet tall. As long as they are reasonably close in height, I wouldn't let a small difference bother you too much. As brought up above, the girth as well as things such as weapons carried. Some figures look like they are carrying around mini telephone poles instead of rifles.

Vehicles are another matter. It is often hard to mix together vehicles from different manufacturers because of design errors, artistic license, scale creep, etc. The best way around this is to use one manufacturer for all your models of one particular vehicle. Not a hard and fast rule but a good fallback plan unless you can access or experiment with vehicles from multiple sources before committing to building a large unit.

As to the "It's a measurement not a scale" argument, just giggle at it a little bit. I have only been mini gaming for about 20 years but definitely know that "20mm Scale" is a well accepted term within the hobby. I just got back from Fall-In! where they published a book with all the gaming events with descriptions. Every one includes a line for "Scale" and the 10mm, 15mm, 20mm, etc. terms are used throughout. Think of it in terms of calling your plumber because you "Hot Water Heater" isn't working. Well, most water heaters heat cold water but calling is a "hot water heater" is a normal and accepted thing to do.

If all that scares you away from 20mm, switch to 15mm scale like I did. ALL of the figures, vehicles and terrain are EXACTLY 1:100 size! LOL!

Wow, bug or something. My above post was eaten by something. Words, phrases and chunks of sentences got lost when posted.

Forget the past…when you print your armies on a 3D printer you can print them at whatever scale you want…whatever/whenever.

switch to 15mm scale like I did. ALL of the figures, vehicles and terrain are EXACTLY 1:100 size

Except when they are 18mm, 1/:120 or 'heroic' scale….. link

"If all that scares you away from 20mm, switch to 15mm scale like I did. ALL of the figures, vehicles and terrain are EXACTLY 1:100 size! LOL!"

Except for the ones which aren't, like Skytrex, QC…. even Zvezda are a bit on the small side compared to PP and QRF, as are some, but not all, PSC offerings.

I also use Roco (see '20mm' above) with my '15mm scale' figures.

I got it Z O C

@ Martin Rapier; If all 15mm figs are supposed to be 1/100 then wouldn't your army be composed entirely of men 4 ' 8.5" tall?

15 mm is more like 1/90

@ Martin Rapier; If all 15mm figs are supposed to be 1/100 then wouldn't your army be composed entirely of men 4 ' 8.5" tall?

@spontoon MR was quoting zoneofcontrol who said: "ALL of the figures, vehicles and terrain are EXACTLY 1:100 size!"

15 mm is more like 1/90

Uh… As 1.8 metres in 1/100 scale would be 18mm it follows that 'true' 15mm (15mm tall, assuming an upright figure) would be smaller, not larger.

Actually 15mm figures vary between about 15-17mm tall, and scale out between 1:120 and 1:100. Most modern vehicles are done in 1/100 scale

Consider also that humans are different heights both individually and over time.

With MLR/FAA my 20mm description was eye to foot. This gave consistancy to product lines.

It is without doubt a B*****d sizing process but irons out questions like how tall are your prototypes. For example what sizes would a British 'Bantam' battalion from WW1 be compared to Prussian or British Guards?

A very real difficulty comes about if you try to represent ethnicities that are 'shorter' than Western Europeans; e.g Vietnamese/Gurkhas. They just don't look right all same size.

I did experiment with 1/72 figures once and probably would have re-sized the whole lot to that scale if the range wasn't so big. Personally I always felt
* 20mm figure 'suit' 1/76 vehicles best
* 1/72 is way better for modelling
* Practically all scenery (e.g. sourced railway buildings) and modern vehicles were(when I was younger) 1/87
* Rules were never 1:1 ground scale so it doesn't matter.
* Don't get me started on basing thicknesses or figure ratios

Play with what ever makes you comfortable. As soon as you put a figure on the table it is 'wrong' to someone else. Its their problem not yours.

Enjoy your games and your collection. Play with whatever feels right for you. There's never enough time to worry about other stuff

2p

John FoA

It would better be called and done in 1/72nd scale wichbis a common model scale, usually also true for the 100 s of good plastic minis around, would finally have guns etc. resonably comparible between themselves.

In truth that manufacturers make a mess of sizes sometimes has the nice effect that you don't have to get all you little guy of the same height. The pb is they should not have custom sized muskets.

I have Britannia Pz MkIV H's in 20mm and just finished building some PSC 1/72 scale of the same tank. Side by side they are almost identical.

1/72nd scale which is a common model scale,

Only true in the case of model aircraft.

@JC Frog: excellent point about the weapons. They should remain the same no matter what the troop type, and should make a good measure around which to build a figure.

Unfortunately many manufacturers/sculptors seem to do it the other way 'round.

I hope Mr. Burnette is having fun yucking it up. Drop a "scale bomb" and then sit back and watch the fall out. Another dull day at the office…

Major B

I think that it possible to buy loads of modern/cold war vehicles and guns in 1/72 now. Really. Look up webshops like emodels (there are loads of others)it's amazing.

Scale is always an amusing after dinner pass-the-post topic of discussion. And you think wargamers are a bit picky look at 1/35th modelling sites. OMG! bitchy or what.

Ho ho ho

John FoA

Now adays 20mm is shorthand for 1/72 thanks to PSC and others going with this "modler's scale".

It used to be 1/87 thanks to mini-tanks. And yes most figure "scales" are based on model railroad stuff.

15mm varies even more than 20mm but seems to be growing and will eventually be 1/87 (again).

Just go with anything marked 1/72 (1/76 OK too but don't mix same vehicle like some of us old timers do…)

Finally retired the last of my old mini-tanks except for a couple of high speed US tractors based on M5s (they seem over scale for 1/87). Oh the memories.

20mm! Great stuff.

TomT

Only true in the case of model aircraft.

Not so. Witness the 1/72 vehicle ranges of Dragon, PSC, Italeri, Hasegawa, Revell and a half a dozen other (smaller) European and Eastern European companies.

I'd like to point out two things
As there are so called purists in most other areas of the hobby those who strive for simulations or correct OOBs or uniforms. or weapons characteristics, it seems that purity of scale is, well, fudged by the idea of size, as if, for example, as some games do, the categorization of certain weapons into heavy, medium and light

The second point is certain companies have supported not only rules sets but scales, specific to the game with game accessories in that scale. If we can fudge the scale, what's the fuss made by these companies about the scale, why not mix 25mm with 28mm or 30mm?
For that matter, why not paint US infantry in Russian green, green is green??

Well to be honest I mix FAA, Kelly's Heroes, Britannia, AB, Battlefield, Blitz, SHQ and MLR/Combat with no worries at all, after some of us are short and fat (me) and others are tall and skinny, and you will find all sorts of body shapes in an average infantry platoon in any army