"Bolt Action or Disposable Heroes?" Topic

I have and played Disposable Heroes and own it but son't see it played much anymore. Thinking of moving to BA but not sure what the differences are. Can someone compare the two for me?

Bolt Action is a very simple game, which makes a lot of abstractions in order to ease and speed up play. For example, tanks are light, heavy or medium.

Players alternate randomly like The Sword and the Flame, but using dice instead of cards. Red die, Germans move a unit, black die the Allies move a unit, that kind of thing. This can lead to some very wonky situations, such as a squad advancing behind a tank. You move the tank first and now the squad is just standing in the road with their thumb up their collective a$$es. Easy to fix with a house rule, but annoying none the less that ordinary tactics don't work in the base game.

Shooting inflicts "pins" which are really just morale hits. To activate you have to pass a morale check at -1 per pin. As you activate you give a unit an order which determines how well it shoots, moves etc.

After that mostly a buckets of dice game. I've played it several times and frankly feel it is so generic it has no WW2 feel at all. You could swap out the figures to, say, Lord of the Rings or Indian Wars and it wouldn't really feel any different.

Plus, it is a system designed to get you to buy lots and lots of army books. DH has them all in the one book.

Lots of people are playing BA so it should be fairly easy to find a place to "try before you buy."

Larry – not an answer to your question I know, but you might like to consider Chain of Command as an alternative. Platoon level, dice activation system, very good period feel and plays well. In its patrol phase, it also has one of the cleverest systems for deploying initial forces on the table that I've come across.

Have you considered Chain of Command?

There are a series of YouTube videos describing how the game is played. Here is the first:

YouTube link

Was that an echo?

I feel Disposable Heros while not complicated but it is more detailed than Bolt Action. BA boils tank and anti-tank details too much. Disposable Heros does not. The infantry rules and how they work are a bit similar but tanks (really all vehicles) and anti-tank weapons are very different. The BA vehicles and anti-tank weapons have rules similar to 40k. If you are fan of 'easy' rules with less historical rules than BA is for you.

I actually embrace the more detailed Disposable style since I hate when gun types and armor values are too simple, leaving me not wanting their numbers squished into very narrow classifications. Once you play Disposable you will see it just as easy as BA, like most rules there is a learning curve.

Larry R wrote: I have and played Disposable Heroes and own it but son't see it played much anymore.

You'll probably be seeing some more chatter about Disposable Heroes soon.

It's easy to 'historicise' BA, in fact it lends itself to it nicely. It's also easy to run a multi-player game – even at battalion level – in a reasonable time frame….assuming you think it's reasonable for a game with maybe 8 or 10 players and several hundred individually-based figures on a 20 foot to last for 4 or 5 hours.

I also would say Chain of Command if you are interested in that scale of gaming instead of BA.

Again, not your original question, but from reading the book and watching it played, I think that Chain of Command has a lot to offer. TFL and I have many similar opinions on what to abstract and what matters. I don't have any experience with DA, so I can't compare it to Bolt Action, Chain of Command, or others. I think the patrol phase in Chain of Command is brilliant; although, I'm not quite so sure about using the jump off points to launch ambushes.

I also recently released something new, called Combat Patrol. There are a couple of threads on TMP WWII Rules, including a link to a how-to video that shows how the game is played.

I think I'll go NUTS! instead! It's a great skirmish system, includes campaign rules and options for co-op and solo play.

link

BA – simple mechanics, lots of abstraction points system oriented. Fun and quick to play.

DH – much more detail especially in the vehicles.

+1 on the CoC recommendations.

You name the rules and I've tried them at some stage. The search is over. Chain of Command is the one.

Here's my plug for Chain of Command too…

P.

CoC for me too

How do you game beheadings?

"What kind of town is this?
What sort of streets are these?
Who invented this, who profits by it?
I saw peddlers at every corner…
…they're selling little guillotines
with tiny sharp blades…
…and dolls filled with red liquid which spurts
from the neck when the sentence is carried out.
What kind of children are these…
…who can play with
this toy so efficiently?
And who is judging?
Who is judging?"

- Charlotte Corday, Marat/Sade

OK to get back to your question Larry instead of trying to get you to try an alternative. And yes Chain of Command, Fireball Forward, Arc of Fire, Battlegroup, and NUTS will all give you a more WW II Tactical feel but that was not what you were asking. In fact I think DH gives a more tactical feel than BA but again that was not your main question.

I will try to give you a run down. First off I have played a lot of DH and really liked the game system. I have also played a lot of Bolt Action lately and it has some of the same flavor as DH in terms of alternating units. The main difference there is that in DH you choose which unit you are going to active and alternate with your opponent. In Bolt Action you could end up with a run of your or your opponents getting to activate depending on what faction's activation die is pulled.

DH when it comes to vehicles especially tanks has more grandularity. In fact the reason the game is titled Disposable Heroes Coffin for Seven Brothers is the Coffin bit was I believe a separate tank only miniature battle game. For tank on tank battle DH with CFSB is a fine game. However when combined with infantry and other units in DH the game mechanics of the two do not quite mesh. This can slow the game down a bit but is not in my opinion a determent per se. When I was playing DH a lot most of the folks I played with were extremely well versed in the game mechanics and we always had a fine time.

BA of course is more abstracted and therefore the infantry and vehicle rules mesh better but for those of us who are tread heads BA lacks in some areas when it comes to tank vs tank, tank vs infantry, tank vs AT gun, etc.

In terms of game play and time I think equivalent games of DH and BA take about the same hours to play. BA may be a little faster.

Both games are bloody which has been a criticism of both. I think that criticism is unfounded as I do more and more research and reading on WW II. Casualty rates and destruction of vehicles was high.

Here is the real rub. You will probably have an easier time finding BA players than DH players at game stores. The reasons for this are obvious, 1) for store owners Warlord has a ready market made with lots of promotions and stuff for a store owner to sell and market to their customers, 2) BA has mechanics that appeal more to the competive and tournament players who are the majority at game store which again goes back to the first point. It makes money for the store owner.

I will use myself as an example. Before I moved to my current location in Dallas, Texas I left behind a solid game group of friends who were avid and finding the right rule to reflect what we felt captured the period regardless or what it was, and we wanted a set of rules that was fun that everyone could master. For WW II that had become Battlegroup and its supplements for the various theaters of the war. Fireball forward was also a favorite and Chain of Command was being explored. Of course in all of our games we were scenario driven in our play not tournament or points driven although you can create forces using points for both Battlegroup and Chain of Command.

However since moving to Dallas I only really have the local game store to go and play. The big WW II games are Bolt Action and you guessed it Flames of War. I can either sit in my small apartment and lament or I can do as the Romans do and join in and have the chance to game and socialize. I am of course picking the latter so I playing Bolt Action and slowly converting 15 mm figures over to run them for Flames of War.

In short Bolt Action is a fun and fast game that has WW II as its setting. No it does not reflect to me WW II tactics. I can live with that and enjoy the game for what it is and I still get to roll dice and and bring out my well painted miniatures for folks to admire.

Thanks for all the input guys. I appreciate it. Since I don't do tournaments and my main opponent is my son who is away at college I will reserve my time for DH and teach him those rules, as he is technically minded and would argue until the cows come home on the benefits of frontal armor versus side armor. If using DH will relieve me of that, then so be it! Thanks again!

Arc of Fire

If you want to act as a corporal: Chain of Command.

If you want to act as a lieutenant, and trust the corporal to do his job: Bolt Action.

I really love Disposable Heroes ( I like CoC too but that was not part of the original question). I like it better than bolt action in that I enjoy the morale and pinning mechanism better than BA, and I like how machine guns and similar weapons have critical impact on morale. I also love the interaction with vehicles in that vehicles have a hard time being effective against infantry due to the difficulty in acquiring infantry in hiding.

The problem with Disposable Heroes is that it really needs a new edition where all the rules get more clearly explained. I have navigated the yahoo group and compiled all their answers plus I've gathered all the info on my on QRS and I recognize that without that work it is hard to play DH :(

So, if you are up for a challenge I think DH is more enjoyable, but Bolt Action is just easy to get into, rules are clear and everything is right at the reach of your hand and that certainly has a lot of value.

just my 2 cents..

cheers
Francisco

Operator5: "You'll probably be seeing some more chatter about Disposable Heroes soon." … why ? I feel "you know something I don't know" ( Inigo Montoya speaking :) )…

I'm really curious…

A joint venture between Brigade Games and Rattrap just bought Iron Ivan, so the game will be getting more of a push, hopefully with some new content.

As a general note when moving to a a new area and finding that gamers don't use your favorite rules – there's nothing wrong with setting up a game and teaching them how to play.

Might expand their horizons. I find many Flames players are stunned to find alternative WWII which they often end up prefering.

As to your question – set up and play both games. Pick your favorite – then try the other suggestions.

TomT

Operator 5 if you need new artwork you know where to find me.

Hopefully the news release goes up tomorrow on TMP, but if you want to check out my Facebook page or the Iron Ivan Facebook page

link

facebook.com/ironivangames

I play both. Disposable Heroes is my first love. A great tactical WWII infantry game which plays so well. And Bolt Action is the number one WWII game in town. Everyone is playing it. Its fun, easy to play, and I do enjoy the dice pull mechanic,

+1 Chain of Command

Switch to Chain of Command.

Concur, Chain of Command.

They are both very easy to play and teach. DH has more granularity, for example use of D10 for most resolution, armour values by location that are measured by mm of armour rather than a couple of categories, same for weapon penetration, but in my opinion doesn't suffer from it in terms of playability relative to BA. You can easily adapt the dice draw mechanic to DH if you like it instead of IGOUGO – in fact that is the way we used to play it. Having played a fair bit of both, I prefer DH for it's greater detail combined with similar playability. Of course, the BA books are much prettier tho!

I also like Chain of Command because of the command mechanics, but that was not relevant to the question asked by the OP.

the nice thing about DH is that I also use it for my Near Future and SciFI games.

Larry R, while I know it is a classic TMP cliche where people invariably suggest things outside the original poster's request.(and here we did it in spades with Chain of Command recommendations) I was wondering why you limited yourself to just those two rulesets? Just curious.

Wow.. will love to see new Iron Ivan material…

New? It was simply bought out, I don't think you will see new DH stuff. I might be wrong though, not the first time.

time will tell :)

daler240D, probably because I own DH and played maybe twice and just coming back from Fall-In where there was a BA tournament and other games for BA on-going elsewhere. I tried to get in some other WW II games but had no luck getting in. I did watch a BA game during the tournament but couldn't get a good feel for it as it was being played by guys who really knew the rules. No real; reason why I signalled out BA, except its popularity. I have all the toys I need to play WWII skirmish…..I think!

Total fib…you can never have all the toys you want….not really.

Trying to stay in line with what I told my wife!

seldonH – please contact me.

We already have things in the works for new scenario books for various core rules sets. Contact me if you are interested in participating.

As for rules revisions and updates, we have been actively discussing that as well. There has been a lot of chatter in the Iron Ivan Yahoo group in the past about revisions/errata/what would you like to see updated or refined. Rich and I would certainly like to see everyone revisit this and new editions become a reality.

Second, from our news posting, we are looking to put an active gamemaster network together and start getting games played at stores and conventions around the globe. Rich is handling that aspect so contact him directly trough one of the many contact points.

Game on.

Larry…fortunately my wife is always keen to acquire more figures, however 'doing as I'm told' pretty much covers the rest of my existence.

GGouveia wrote: New? It was simply bought out, I don't think you will see new DH stuff. I might be wrong though, not the first time.

I am happy to say, and hopefully you are happy to know that you will be wrong. :-)

The news was about us buying them, but the plan is not not just let them sit there. These are great rules with lots of potential. We want to hear all the ideas and Lon has already approached a few people about building out more for DH.

Operator5 like I said, not the first time I have been wrong. I wish you good luck in your new endeavor!!!!!!! The more options the better.

If Someone gave me Bolt action, I would give them away.

If Someone gave me Disposable heroes, I would keep them.

But If it was my money, I would buy Chain of Command.

@Brigadegames, email sent :)