"British Vickers Mk II Questions " Topic

I am working on a model of the British Vickers Mk II tank as depicted in the 1936 movie "Things to Come". There is only a brief shot of it but you can see what appears to be a white circle on the turret, and 5D or 5O on the front of the body. I am trying to find out what markings these represent?

Also, from Mike Starker's excellent book on British tank camouflage the color scheme should probably have been an overall bronze green, and a shiny paint at that. However, the tank in the movie appears to be in a two tone camouflage, but that was in use until 1939. Any thoughts?

I tried to post a picture/screen shot from the movie, but couldn't get it to work, so here's the link to the picture. The two tone camouflage seems most apparent on the turret side.

link

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Terry

The circle means a vehicle from 1st Section, "A" company (from p120 Dick Taylor's Warpaint Volume 2). The number is the vehicle's call sign which probably also appeared on the hull sides towards the rear (p117 same source) and might also be on the rear hull (p45 Volume 1 same source for a photo).

p45 also gives the standard colour for vehicles as deep bronze green, but notes that "many interesting camouflage schemes were tried throughout the late twenties and thirties…".

The vehicle should also have had a civilian number plate front and rear and a three digit number preceeded by the letter "T" hull front and rear (see Warpaint Vol. 1 page 82 for a list of the numbers for each vehicle type).

John, thank you for the great help here. I regret I do not have the book you reference. So can you tell me what the hull number would be 5D or 50? Would the circle be white?

Starmer's book, which I do have also references early trials of camouflage using a variety of colors, but none seemed to be very effective. The tank in hte picture looks to be an overall color until you look at the turret area under the circle and then it looks like a patch of a darker color????

Thank you again for the great help!

Terry

I had a look through "Mechanized Force" and only found one photo of a tankette with an alphanumeric call sign (5b). All the mediums had numeric callsigns, either two digit or three digit. So I reckon your tank is call sign 50. Styles of numbers are also variable, with and without serif.

If you really want to do a disruptive scheme on the tank, then I'd go with near black over the bronze green, but really, you may as well just do it plain bronze green as it is so hard to distinguish.

I'm afraid that I don't know!

I'd go with white markings (based on the vehicle at Bovington link my guess is that it is "50" not "5D" (from memory the photos of Vickers Mediums I've seen with a letter in the call sign have the letter before the number), and like Martin I'd use bronze green overall.

Incidentally the dark rectangle sticking out from the back of the hull in the photo is the back of the number plate.

Gentlemen, my very sincere thanks. Overall bronze green it will be, and number 50 in white as well as a white circle. That all works very well for me and could not have done it without your help!

Terry

I knew I'd seen white markings somewhere, yes, it was Bovingdon.

Have fun with your Vickers Medium, a fine tank!

Gentlemen, A little further research into Sramer and also my copy of Zaloga's Blitzkrieg indicates something a little bit different re the circle marking on he turret. According to these two sources the circle represents C Squadron.

"To identify the different squadrons of armoured units, markings in the form of geometric signs in the appropriate squadron colour were carried on the turrets of armoured vehicles and the doors of squadron transport. In order of regimental seniority the signs were red for senior, yellow for next junior and cobalt blue for the junior regiment. Independent Brigades use white markings. Squadrons were identified by geometric signs as follows with Headquarters using a diamond, 'A' Squadron being a triangle, 'B' squadron being a square and 'C' squadron being a circle."

Pg 39, "British Army Colours & Disruptive Camouflage in he United Kingdom, France & NW Europe 1936-45" by Mike Starmer.

Zaloga mirrors the same information pg 90, "Blitzkrieg Armour Camouflage and Markings 1939-1940" by Steven Zaloga.

This does differ slightly with the information shared by John, but I do not doubt the accuracy of his material as it might be for a different date.

In any event, I am quite happy with the the circle being white, and wither it is A Squadron or C Squadron is also not critical, as the circle does represent the Squadron the tank belongs to.

Terry

Pages 118 onwards of Vol. 2 of Taylor's Warpaint shows how the system developed from 1930 (when a 10" diameter ½" thick circle was 1 section A company), complete with a photo of an illustration in Tank Training, Vol. I, Training, 1930, noting that the marking had been in use as early as 1928. By 1934 the thickness of the line had increased to 1" (and the markings for 2nd and 3rd sections had changed from two or three concentric circles to a vertical and horizontal bar across the circle), with a variant from 1937 (which didn't affect the basic circle being A or First Coy, 1st Section). "By 1939 the different geometric systems trialled before the war had been rationalised and a standard system had been established …". The circle became C or 3rd squadron, company or battery (the triangle became A or First (previously it was B or Second) and the diamond, which had been C or Third became a square for B or second. The diamond in the new system was HQ and RHQ. For completeness a solid rectangle taller than wide was added in April 1940 for D or Fourth and a solid rectangle wider than tall was added in March 1944 for Support Company.

Page 126 says that the colours showing regimental seniority within the formation were introduced "at the same time" (i.e. 1939).

If you get into painting British vehicles 1903 to 2003 and want serious amounts of detail Taylor's books are brilliant (about £16.00 GBP a volume, I got the four volumes as they were published so the cost didn't seem that bad – I might have resisted spending over £60.00 GBP had they been published as a single volume).

Like Martin I've always had a soft spot for the Vickers Medium.

Ah John, Excellent, just excellent. I figured there was an answer as I did not doubt your input/source. And as I quoted directly from the Starmer volume you see he did not give a date, but suspected it might have been later than 1936. I suspect for the 1936 time period your source is the right one.

Again, for my needs, it doesn't make that much difference.

I will have to check into the books you reference. Do they cover specific years or different subjects through all the years? I'll have to find a source.

Thanks again for the great info!

Terry

Just checked on the Taylor books and they must be out of pint now. The first volume is ^( BP and the rest seem to be about the same. I saw one volume listed here in the US for $574 USD!!!!! Sadly, won't be getting them at that price!

Terry

They cover subjects but not necessarily across the whole 100 years, so you really need to own all four volumes (a bit annoying).

Looks like volumes 3 and 4 are still in print, link

It might be worth dropping the publisher a line to see if they plan to reprint the first two volumes.

Terry, maybe you can get your local library or find someone associated with the local university library to get that book you want through interlibrary loan. Even if you have to keep it in the library you only need it for reference.

Great suggestion, Bob.

The publishers, MMP, were at the IPMS Model World exhibition in Telford today – I asked if they were going to reprint the out of print volumes of "Warpaint" – the answer was yes, but they didn't know when, but if people contacted them and expressed an interest it would move up the schedule link

Just FYI. I found a picture on line of a Vickers Mk II that had a circle on the side front corner and also one on the rear side corner of the turret. Makes me think they went this route instead of putting them on the hull, and that may be why the one pictured in the movie didn't see to have any on the hull????

Great news about reprinting those books and I am contacting them for sure. Thanks again John!

Terry