"TMP 4" Topic

Is it ever coming? Every so often the Editor will start a thread asking members what features they'd like to see implemented, retained or discarded as if to imply it's just around the corner, only to be swiftly followed by a thread lamenting a series of (often trivial, personal) problems that keep him from attaining the elusive goal. If he doesn't intend to ever upgrade that's fine, but it might be decent, not to say professional, to just admit it: TMP 4 is never happening.

It's hard to understand at a point in the hobby where there are so many sleek, efficient sites like LAF, TWW and many valuable blogs, how TMP hopes to keep itself from dwindling even further into obscurity. I suspect if it wasn't for a backlog of valuable conversations from 5+ years ago (before most of the more intelligent voices were locked out for a whole series of dubious, mysterious reasons), and the freak show that is the UM board, TMP would've been long gone.

Perhaps we can use this thread as a kind of suggestion box. Even if Bill has no real intention of implementing TMP4, or if he's perpetually on such thin ice that a flat tire can send the TMP financials into a death spin, maybe we can give him suggestions for improvements that can be made for little or no cost?

Wow: for a guy whose been here a whole 7 days you really seem to have your finger on the pulse. Then there's that crystal ball of yours which seems to know that "TMP 4 is never happening."

If you have an axe to grind (about) TMP than go ahead: don't waste everybody's time with obvious misdirection.

No axes, Joe's Shop, just straightforward questions and..hopefully..straightforward answers.

It reminds me of Tactica 2, which was going to be Tacticia 2000.

How many years has this upgrade been promised? As I said, if it's not going to happen or is so down the road and contingent on a lucky scratch off that it's essentially theoretical, that's fine. Just be upfront about it.

If it is never happening, why bother to discuss suggestions for it? I mean, you could be doing something constructive, like painting figs or playing with your tomahawk or something.

Actually, on that note, Tactica 2 should be published this coming year.

Comparing TMP to 'modern' and (obviously) comparatively newer sites like LAF is pointless. Those sites started with new technology and plug in formats. TMP will have to be ported over and I imagine based on its current format it will be difficult and time consuming.

It's not just "a bug", it's an infestation. Even by the archaic standards of its time and perhaps not entirely professional coding, TMP is a haunted house site. Even the security protocols are incompetent: trolls come and go as they please, God only knows what an ambitious hacker could do.

While Tomahawk could show more tact than this, his question is valid. Perhaps if Bill just laid out his plan for the rollout, that would calm people for whom this is a big issue.

As for those other sites he mentioned, I find them to be twice and modern and half as valuable as TMP. TMP is like a comfortable pair of jeans- well worn, but your favorite nonetheless.

Eventually Bill will trundle along with a

"We'll get there when we get there!" (Sickly Blue Grin)

and, having dismissed all legitimate complaints, will go back to focusing on whatever mysterious activity it is that keeps him from an upgrade that, by any normal standard, should've been finalized years ago.

For the record, I am not now or have been in the past a member of Frothers. That site is, by far, not the only source of discontent with TMP.

Tomahawk Man is, of course, Legartija Mike trolling again.

well I have been here longer than 7 days, 12 years to be precise and I don't believe it will ever happen.

I work in the IT industry and I am am well versed in the usual excuses from developers when nothing is happening or a project is not going to be delivered on time.

How do I know you may ask. If a real migration were in process there could be a side by side demo of the new solution to demonstrate new features and look and feel. That would be really easy, just a URL to the new product.

BUT that hasn't happened. Just some questions such as "would you like this feature or that in the new version" and everyone replying "yes please" haha, it is really laughable.

Whether it be down to the change requiring investment in either hardware or software or both or lack of technical ability, I wouldn't know.

Saying that, I don't really care if they upgrade or not. It doesn't cost me anything after all.

L Mike convinced me to become a supporting member so maybe he is actually helping TMP.

Funny how not having 4.0 diminishes my enjoyment of TMP not one whit.

Even if trolling, the OP makes a valid point. 4.0 has been "coming soon" for years now. TMP is very archaic compared to pretty much every other gaming forum I've been on (except maybe yahoo groups). What other site has to go down for a couple hours of mysterious maintenance every single day, or has bugs that have been re-appearing for years?

If 4.0 isn't going to happen, or at least not for some years then fine, but at least say so instead of stringing us on and on.

+1 TGerritsen

TMP is very archaic compared to pretty much every other gaming forum I've been on (except maybe yahoo groups).

Yes, but you have to admit that it does work (most of the time).

@ tomahawk man- never heard of LAF site. Wargames website is pretty much useless; little conversation going on. TMP is not perfect and can be frustrating, but there is a real discourse going on and there is usually someone willing to help out with the odd questions that Wargamers come up with. Yes, it would be nice to have a slicker front end, but I like what we got.

Funny how not having 4.0 diminishes my enjoyment of TMP not one whit.

The other day, I saw a Ford Model T rolling through the neighborhood. It was painted in one of the many shades of black it came in. It's quite archaic by today's standards but I still would not mind owning one.

I guess what I am saying is that TMP may be old, but it is still an enjoyable place to come and talk about the hobby.

I was thinking the same thing. I have plenty of tools that are pushing a hundred years old in my shed. They still work, some a bit better than others admittedly. I find most of the more modern forum formats just a little to 'samey' for my tastes.

Living in the past, present or future:
link

I believe most people can be categorised as focussing on one of the three.

T M, interestingly, seems to fall into two of the categories. I guess that's one reason he's "special".

He dwells on the future of TMP & 4.0 as some sort of Utopian goal. It may well never happen but the lure motivates him to begin threads such as this one. Such a perspective leads to dark thoughts, depression & trolling.

The past is shown by reference to,

if it wasn't for a backlog of valuable conversations from 5+ years ago

This may well be true (I gather there's a whole website dedicated to "What a better place TMP was before I was chucked out") but it's a retrograde way of looking at things. This view will result in a sad, sad demeanour & general unhappiness &, reportedly, halitosis.

Me? I prefer to live in the present. TMP is hardly perfect but it provides information & entertainment at satisfactory levels. People with my outlook can, with some justice, be labelled "cheerful idiots" but I would ask you to consider the adjective.

Dave, LAF is The Lead Adventure Forum, and it is an excellent resource full of polite, supportive members--many of whom are incredibly talented. It's well worth a visit.

Having said this, it's safe to say TMP remains far and away the number one hobby resource on the net (a trip to Google will prove this), and remains the benchmark against which all other wargaming sites compare themselves. Is there room for improvement? Naturally. Are there things said and done here that can make one cringe with embarrassment? Oh, yes. I have made many gaffs myself, both here and elsewhere. But then, this is the internet and these things are to be expected. While I too would like to see 4.0, in the end it honestly doesn't matter that much to me. TGerritson's comparison to an old pair of jeans is, I think, a rather good one.

Lastly, a forum, like a man, can often be judged by the enemies he keeps. A quick look at Mike's history of laboured posts and the endless, rancid tittering that passes for conversation at the other site make this place not seem so bad after all.

I find threads on TMP much easier to read than those on many more "modern" forums. The only thing that really could do with improvement is the search facility.

Everyone has always been kind and helpful to me. So much so I become a supporting member recently. I see some bad behavior occasionally but it is very rare. I don't really need an upgrade but a way to follow threads, better (different) visibility to new posts, improved search, a full editor with preview, and easier cross posting would be nice.

The only thing that really could do with improvement is the search facility.

You ain't kiddin'! Fortunately we do have the power of google to provide until better functionality is in place.

Example:

My Search Term site:theminiaturespage.com

You can also search specific forums if know the forum id. This one searched the "General Boards"

My Search Term site:theminiaturespage.com/boards/boards.mv?period=gen

Google is your friend!

I like this current TMP. Because it is compatible with my older OS & IE (and the nice green/gray background which easier on the eyes, unlike the blinding white that I get when using an updated computer…)

+1 Terrement

The changes and additions that would make be happy aren't much to ask. They certainly won't make TMP "slick & modern".

I find threads on TMP much easier to read than those on many more "modern" forums. The only thing that really could do with improvement is the search facility.

I wholeheartedly agree.

I had the opportunity to dine at a Chinese restaurant this evening, and as you all know, fortune cookies never lie:

Honest story! I really got this fortune tonight!

Did you play those numbers?

Is it ever coming?

First of all, Mike or Larry or John or Derek or whoever you are, just be honest. You don't care about TMP 4.0. You are just a troll.

Every so often the Editor will start a thread asking members what features they'd like to see implemented, retained or discarded as if to imply it's just around the corner, only to be swiftly followed by a thread lamenting a series of (often trivial, personal) problems that keep him from attaining the elusive goal.

Apples and oranges. Yes, as I continue in the development, I become aware of issues I want feedback on and raise them with the TMP community. Nothing wrong with that.

And yes, I do keep the TMP community updated when I am behind schedule – not on TMP 4.0 development, but on regular things like membership processing or answering email. That is just common courtesy.

…if he's perpetually on such thin ice that a flat tire can send the TMP financials into a death spin…

Yes, I needed to get a car tire repaired this week. (It wasn't flat.) Did I say anything at all about it affecting TMP's financial state? NO. It cost $20 USD to fix.

No axes, Joe's Shop, just straightforward questions and..hopefully..straightforward answers.

No. For some deep psychological reasons, you are disturbed by the fact that I've hired a few transgender individuals to work here, and you started that awful topic on Frothers to stalk and persecute them. Then you blame me because you were exposed as the person who started that discussion, as the person who called himself Khurasan "John," and as the pathetic Larry Dunn who plays edit games on Wikipedia. You are frustrated because no matter how much you troll, you can't get under my skin. I'm a happy guy. I love working on TMP. I love my staff. I love (most of) the people who visit TMP. I am grateful for those who support TMP with their paid memberships – which are at an all-time record high, by the way! Larry, you have failed. You have not destroyed me, and you cannot destroy TMP.

I think there is no arguing the comparisons to the other gaming sites where "the bug" does not exist, where the design (perhaps because they were of a later vintage) seem better designed, and the agonizing wait for the promised improvements of 4.0.

Has nothing to do with the design, but the technology. TMP is doing really amazing things with the technology it was built on, but there is only so much that can be done. The MAJOR CHANGE for TMP 4.0 is a new database backend.

Speaking personally, I would rather have an "agonizing wait" and get it right, then a hurried development that ultimately disappoints.

TMP will have to be ported over and I imagine based on its current format it will be difficult and time consuming.

The porting part is rather straightforward. I've already done a lot of testing on this. Moving stuff between databases certainly requires care, but it is not rocket science.

It's not just "a bug", it's an infestation. Even by the archaic standards of its time and perhaps not entirely professional coding, TMP is a haunted house site.

Larry, I've been a professional coder for a long, long time, with a solid record of accomplishment. TMP is essentially a content-management system created from scratch! Darn impressive for its time, and it still does lots of things other websites don't even dream of.

Even the security protocols are incompetent: trolls come and go as they please, God only knows what an ambitious hacker could do.

Larry, if I really cared, I could lock you out 100%. As it is, you are blocked about 80% of the time. You know that, because we keep locking most of your accounts before you can even use them. Sadly, with TMP 4.0, we'll probably moderate posts by new users to make it even harder for you. Ultimately, Larry, you are nothing more than a nuisance.

I work in the IT industry and I am am well versed in the usual excuses from developers when nothing is happening or a project is not going to be delivered on time.

Me too. I earned many many air miles over the years, flying around the USA to inspect the work of developers "back in the day."

How do I know you may ask. If a real migration were in process there could be a side by side demo of the new solution to demonstrate new features and look and feel. That would be really easy, just a URL to the new product.

No real motivation to spend extra time on "side by side demos," is there? What would be the purpose?

And a URL to where? Development is being done on a system here at TMP. No need to put this online at this stage.

Whether it be down to the change requiring investment in either hardware or software or both or lack of technical ability, I wouldn't know.

I've deliberately chosen a technology path which requires not a lot of up-front investment. No new hardware. Software upgrades that typically cost $100 USD here and there. And my technical ability is excellent, thank you.

Perhaps if Bill just laid out his plan for the rollout, that would calm people for whom this is a big issue.

Haven't I already done this in previous updates? What more do you want to know?

What other site has to go down for a couple hours of mysterious maintenance every single day, or has bugs that have been re-appearing for years?

Both are "features" of the database technology that TMP uses. That's why we need to upgrade.

My understanding is he is wanting to do the whole thing all at once in one major switch: news, articles, and forums.

Yes and no. I've outlined previously which features are planned to be functional when TMP 4.0 rolls out, and which aren't. However, it wouldn't be TMP without news and forums.

One approach that he perhaps has considered and would be easier, in my opinion, would be to simply start a separate forum and have it running at the same time with a link to it from here. It may need a separate user name and password system from here, but so what? After some operation, a couple of years or less, the boards here can be locked and continue onto the new forum.

I think the problem there is that we have not only the main forum, but also the Hobby News comments (which are actually a forum too, under the hood). So I don't think that would simplify things, but I'll mull it over.

Here's something else which may be tripping Bill up with his, in my opinion, insanity with so many boards. I don't believe a lot of these forum software allow for cross-posting.

The number of boards is just a database issue, nothing complicated. Yes, crossposting will have to be added custom, but that is not very complex to implement.

Oh, and Mike? Please stop sending sinister PMs to the editors. It just makes them laugh, and then they don't get their work done.

My advice is to run them both at the same time.

yes, but trying to keep two sets of membership data in synch sounds like a very bad plan.

Seriously, I've been at DB development since 1988.

I was writing articles for programming magazines when you were still in school.

…but were the articles for database business applications?

No, I got the degree for that later.

Yes and cutting edge in the 90's is irrelevant today.
Being out of the industry for a few months means out of touch.
ditto tango, you are spot on with your advice. Waterfall , big bang deployment was the way in the 90s but not so today.

frequent showcasing to the stakeholder, release small and often. It really works!

this this sort of project took longer than 2 weeks in the commercial environment, questions would be asked.

as I said, I have no vested interest since I am not a paying customer, I am just highlighting what is current in my field of managing multi terrabyte , enterprise warehouses on open source and SQL server platforms

As we are waving our IT credentials around, I get paid to do this stuff too.

Yes, short cycles, minimal viable products, respond to feedback. Fail fast, learn quickly. It all sounds like management , but it really, really does work.

Also, never build anything unless you absolutely have to (as 90% of the application costs are in maintenance, not development), focus on delivering business value quickly. Rent, buy, build and all that, particularly in a cost constrained environment.

Not all problems lend themselves to this approach of course, but it does sit well with website development.

Spec driven development works too, but it is prone to cost overruns and feature dead ends, depending on the scope of the the problem (and scope creep can be a problem too, something a more iterative approach helps with considerably).

As ever, this advice is worth exactly what you've paid for it:)

Martin, you expressed what i was trying to say much better than me.

As i try to do at work, i will mind my own business and avoid getting stressed.

I fear 4.0.
Change is bad.

One thing I will say about Tomahawk Man. Hi Mike!
He is able to clean scatological terms from his vocabulary if the need arises, but the sentence structure(s) never change.

I like TMP!

It's fast, nice and clean to read, easy to navitgate ect.

Except for the bugs, it's perfect!

I only got into historicals about three years ago. I found TMP because most of the googling I did for info on various games and companies led me here. So I eventually joined and recently became a supporting member. The site certainly looks and feels "old fashioned" but the archived knowledge is invaluable.

There are people here trying to give you good advice, Bill. Despite all the foolishness that has gone on, some still value TMP. You're behaving like the young 2Lt who has come to his first platoon and won't listen to advice from his senior NCOs.

I am listening.

So far, I've been told that the job is so easy it should only take two weeks, but so difficult that I should only proceed piece by piece without any customizations.

This is from people who have no idea how TMP is currently structured, and haven't worked with the content-management system I am moving to.

Look, guys, thanks for the free advice! You have given me a few good ideas. However, lighten up. TMP 4.0 is proceeding fine. You will see.

I am certain I recall a year or two before around 2010 that you were talking about learning SQL?

Oh, I know SQL…

just to qualify, after two weeks there would be at least something to show, moving toward MVP rather than the finished article.

But, like tango ditto, the nightly shutdown is the only thing I don't like and I have got used to it over the years.

We all enjoy TMP and we want to see it do well, and so we are all on the same side. I am sure version 4.0 will be great!

ditto tango, whats a syntax difference between friends!! Respect to Oracle!

"Actually, on that note, Tactica 2 should be published this coming year." Believe it when you have a copy in your hands.

Just made my first post and was looking around for a subscription button. No such thing, it seems…

I found an old threat from three years ago saying that it might be implemented in TMP 4, so now the obvious question is: when (if ever) will that be?

Looking around, there seems to be a lot of information here. But sadly no efficient way of keeping track of the threads you're talking part in. :-(