"Confederate Uniforms 1863" Topic
31 Posts
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mysteron | 27 Oct 2015 3:40 a.m. PST |
Apologies if this is a daft question but it is something that is niggling at me a bit. As previously stated in one of my other posts , I am a novice when it comes to ACW gaming . I have got quite a few books on uniforms but when it come to the confederates , the more I read about them the more confused I seem to get. I am looking at doing the era around 1863 Perry's also produce a uniform guide and just wondering what numbers in a typical unit of say 30 would be uniformed the same way as the example they give? Or would they all look different with the only unit recognition being the unit colours? Thanks for your help |
rvandusen | 27 Oct 2015 3:47 a.m. PST |
I suspect they would be fairly similar since a unit would tend to be issued clothes from the same depot. Of course there can be reasonable variation here and there. |
zippyfusenet | 27 Oct 2015 3:55 a.m. PST |
It depended. Confederate supply was fairly well organized in 1863. If troops were in camp, it would not be unusual for a regiment to get a full issue of clothing, all from the same stocks, and look very uniform. A brigade could also be issued uniforms, or even a division, and look uniform throughout. Or the quartermaster might come up a bit short, and have to issue just one company with a batch of uniforms that he found covered with spiderwebs in the back of a boxcar, that looked different. Or the QM could get a batch of clothing that came half from a warehouse in Savannah and the other half from Richmond, two different styles, and issue them to different regiments of the brigade, or to different companies of the regiment, or randomly through the division to whoever was most ragged. Actual practice varied. On a hard campaign, when clothing wore out and re-issues were scarce, all bets were off. |
avidgamer | 27 Oct 2015 4:06 a.m. PST |
First of all, don't go by the Perry's info in their box and/or the box cover. As already stated the uniforms could be all the same and some not. A lot has to do with when they were issued new uniforms and how long they were on a campaign. Clothing wears out quickly in the Summer months during a hard campaign. When new uniforms were issued they would usually be all at once for a particular regiment or brigade. If they were 2 month removed from that issue you might see some replacement trousers here or though. They would be the first to blow out. If you go to: link You'll find a primer on painting Rebs for generic regiments. At Gettysburg there were numerous regiments that had brand new uniforms, some very worn out and a few with a mix and match of colors to a lesser degree. Getting back to your question.. I'd keep most with the same Shell Jacket color but change say… 5 with another color. For the trousers I'd mix in 10 with a different color. Overall they will look 'uniform' but not totally. |
Yankee Tiger | 27 Oct 2015 4:16 a.m. PST |
Nice site, Avidgamer! Thanks for sharing – one more site to bookmark and add to the resource list. I'm working on a similar project and have been using these sites (and a few others) along with several books on uniforms. Blue and Gray Marching link Led Jensen link Frederick Adolphus link Hope this helps. Jay |
john lacour | 27 Oct 2015 5:06 a.m. PST |
very good link, but a tad bit off on a few points… |
Extra Crispy | 27 Oct 2015 7:21 a.m. PST |
The "ragged rebs" thing is overdone in gaming circles I think. The CSA had decent quartermasters, but as noted campaigning is hard on uniforms. My solution (I don't paint specific units) is to make my regiments fairly uniform, but vary the regiments. So the greys will vary as will the butternuts. Remember, prostitution may be the oldest profession, but cheating the government is second. Substandard cloth, seams and dyes, not to mention that dyes of the time were not uniform (heck they aren't today), varying weathering etc. will create a lot of variety even if starting from the same place. |
Ed Mohrmann | 27 Oct 2015 7:34 a.m. PST |
In 1863, pre- and post- Gettysburg and Vicksburg will make a large difference. Some ANV units received replacements in groups, which would tend to be uniformed the same or very similarly. Western units, after the V'burg surrender, tended to be more haphazard in their supply arrangements, hence more 'ragged Reb' although the 'ragged' part should not necessarily predominate. |
ColCampbell | 27 Oct 2015 7:38 a.m. PST |
While reading the book The maps of Chickamauga, the author makes a point that most, if not all, of Longstreet's Corps was issued new uniforms as they made their way from Virginia to northern Georgia. At Chickamauga, some of the regiments were mistaken for Yankees because their new uniforms were such a dark blue-gray. So there's another color option for Confederate troops. Jim |
avidgamer | 27 Oct 2015 7:41 a.m. PST |
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MajorB | 27 Oct 2015 8:10 a.m. PST |
I just paint some Rebs in grey and some in butternut and then mix and match as I wish – some units all in grey some all in butternut and some a mixture. Since all my units are "generic", nobody can say I'm wrong! |
Big Red | 27 Oct 2015 8:35 a.m. PST |
Rice Bull, a northern solder who was wounded and captured at Chancellorsville, said he was amazed at the large number of different types of southern uniforms. That campaign had been going on for only a week or two. |
avidgamer | 27 Oct 2015 8:52 a.m. PST |
Yes, but you have to know what was up with the AoNV before Chancellorsville. The Reb army was very low on everything for months every at the time of the battle, from feed for horses, food for the men and clothing. Bull also had a limited view of the enemy being a ordinary soldier. Lee was not ready to fight. His army was also widely dispersed to live off the land… in their OWN land. |
Murphy | 27 Oct 2015 9:43 a.m. PST |
Mysteron; Please allow me to bloviate for a bit. First off, don't worry about your questions. They are good, and if anyone gets upset about them, (even after your confession of being a novice to the period), tell 'em to off!
As someone who has spent approx 30 odd years studying this period, I can say that I am nothing more than a glorified amateur. However if you want to get an idea of the uniforms, well…here's a site that might help with the issue of shell jackets: link Please note the listing of what was supplied to the ANV in 1864 -1865: A close look at contemporary Confederate records, including those for the blackest period of the war, reveal some startling statistics. For example, during the last six months of 1864 and including to 31 January 1865, the Army of Northern Virginia alone was issued the following:104,199 Jackets 140,570 Pairs of Trousers 167,862 Pairs of Shoes 157,727 Cotton Shirts 170,139 Pairs of Drawers 146,136 Pairs of Shoes 74,851 Blankets 27,011 Hats and Caps 21,063 Flannel Shirts 4,861 Overcoats These were field issues only, and did not include issues to men on furlough, detailed at posts, paroled and exchanged prisoners or any other issues. Moreover, these were overwhelmingly central government issues, and did not include issues by any states except part of North Carolina's. During this same period, Georgia provided to the Confederate Army as a whole, over and above the figures quoted above: 26,795 Jackets 28,808 Pairs of Trousers 37,657 Pairs of Shoes 24,952 Shirts 24,168 Pairs of Drawers 23,024 Pairs of Socks 7,504 Blankets 7 At this same time, field returns showed the Army of Northern Virginia with a maximum strength of 66,533, including 4,297 officers. 8 Obviously, because of personnel turnover, the actual number of people in the army was somewhat greater; but at the same time it is obvious that with the exception of overcoats, hats and caps, and flannel shirts, many of which had already been provided, the Army of Northern Virginia was not only well supplied, but in some cases extravagantly so. Also please look at this info here so you can get a decent idea of uniforms and colors: link Also, pay attention to some of the information on some of the various units. For example, of Longstreets corps at Chickamauga; had recently been issued a new set of uniforms which looked almost bluish and contributed to some possible "Friend fire"… Here's some more info for you: link link Hope this helps…. |
Murphy | 27 Oct 2015 9:45 a.m. PST |
For figures I would say a mix of greys and butternuts/browns would be appropriate. Some of the grays almost being a gray-tan (faded jean cloth). |
Frederick | 27 Oct 2015 9:49 a.m. PST |
As noted by 1863 the Confederate quartermasters were pretty good – the "Ragged Reb" look was probably most common in 1862 – when the uniforms from 1861 were wearing out and the quartermasters were getting their act together plus all the hard campaigning of the year – as well as in 1865 when the supply system was breaking down I just finished a unit for Santa Moe – I used a roughly 50/50 mix of butternut and grey |
vtsaogames | 27 Oct 2015 12:07 p.m. PST |
My suggestion is one third units in mostly grey, one third butternut and one third mixed. |
Pan Marek | 27 Oct 2015 1:17 p.m. PST |
Here's where my recent reading has confused me: Previously, I thought butternut was as close as the CSA could often get to grey for a dye. That is, uniforms dyed that way started out as brown/tan. Now, my reading, with photos from the internet, seems to indicate that butternut resulted from bad gray dyes fading. Or in other words, the uniforms were gray when issued, then changed color over time. This would seem to indicate that all in any given regiment at any one given time would be mostly clad in the same color, rather than a mix. Right? Wrong? Other? |
Col Durnford | 27 Oct 2015 1:39 p.m. PST |
My own take on it is that the CSA are more fun to paint then the Union. To keep it fun, you must have variety. My armies are based as the regiment being the smallest unit. I pick a base color of gray for the brigade level (some darker – some lighter). The first regiment of the brigade is done in the most uniform appearance. As the regiments go out from there the uniform gets less uniform. |
TKindred | 27 Oct 2015 3:19 p.m. PST |
Pan Marek said: Here's where my recent reading has confused me: Previously, I thought butternut was as close as the CSA could often get to grey for a dye. That is, uniforms dyed that way started out as brown/tan. Now, my reading, with photos from the internet, seems to indicate that butternut resulted from bad gray dyes fading. Or in other words, the uniforms were gray when issued, then changed color over time. This would seem to indicate that all in any given regiment at any one given time would be mostly clad in the same color, rather than a mix. Right? Wrong? Other? Correct. Butternut is the result of vegetable dyes oxidizing after exposure to the environment. heat, sunlight, etc, all conspired to bring all but the strongest, best-made dyes to a faded condition. BTW: "Butternut" isn't a particular color, or even shade, hue, etc. It was a term coined by federal soldiers regarding the overall look f the confederate army. "Butternut" refers to the multi-shades of the seed pods from the Butternut tree link The fruit/nuts turned a variety of shades and it is this which was being remarked on when describing confederate clothing. "Butternut" could as easily mean gray as tan, dun, drab, or brown, etc. It's the overal "look" of a mob of men,m rather than the actual colors. Keep in mind that CS units were not quite as muddled as some may think. Most images of CS soldiers are either of casualties in the field, or groups of POW's. In either case, those images represent a variety of different units, especially those of casualties such as were taken at Antietam. Those of CS dead along the Hagerstown pike are the result of artillery fire on at least two separate brigades. Basing your modeling/painting upon such images is not without it's risked. Your best bet is to paint each regiment as a similar fashion, and vary the regiments, more or less, within a brigade, thus giving you a more "butternut" appearance overall. For example, for Gettysburg, absent actual data on a unit's clothing, default to grey for all jackets within a unit. Vary the shade of grey within a brigade (IE: from one unit to another) but within each regiment, keep it the same. Instead of jackets, vary the trouser colors, as these wear out the fastest. Try and stay away from federal sky blue, and use various shades of gray, brown, tan, etc. for the trousers. Add the odd civilian pants as well, perhaps with stripes or checks, etc. Also, vary the color of the blankets within a regiment too, as well as use a variety if hats & caps. This will keep the overall look of each regiment unique, while also adding some uniformity to it. Lastly, try and eliminate those white haversacks. After more than a couple weeks they would have been stained all sorts of greasy colors and shades. They carried cooked rations. There wasn't any waxed paper or tinfoil to use to wrap them in. Most CS soldiers talk in their letters and memoirs about grabbing a "tarred" haversack as soon as the opportunity presented itself. Anyway, that's my take on it. Use known info wherever possible, but by 1863, start using large swaths of grey, and by 1864, LARGE amounts a dark blue-grey English Army Cloth. V/R |
john lacour | 27 Oct 2015 4:54 p.m. PST |
i have been a student on the battle of gettysburg for just about 35 years. i'm still learning. i have, in my collection, a letter from the 3rd corps quartermaster to gen. hill. it reads, in part, "the men should refrain from using fed. uniform items, esp. JACKETS. the men of gen. mcgowans brigade(now under the command of col. perrin) have been told, on several occasions, to discard THE JACKETS, as they invite a danger, while in battle, of misidentifacation(sp).as there is such a large number of men in this brigade wearing fed. jackets, the regimental commanders should have the jackets turned in if replacement are on hand. the blue TROUSERS MAY BE RETAINED, as these pose little to no problem in identifacation(sp, again). it also mentions perrys florida brigade as also having a large number of men wearing fed. jackets. the pants don't seem to have been a "no-no", and the troops worn them. i',m of the mind that the ANV was indeed highly varied in uniform color. mean to say, if you read the accounts of the battle, by men who were there, books written in the late 19th and early 20th century, i have to go with what they say over what to me is "revisionist" history. take davis"s brigade(3rd corp). 3 regiments of mississippi troops and 1 regiment from north carolina. i've read quite alot about how the miss. troops worn "dirt colored rags" and were "envious" of the 55th nc because of their "fine gray uniforms". |
TKindred | 27 Oct 2015 7:36 p.m. PST |
John, I, as well, have spent more than 40 years studying ACW material culture. This includes not just examining period descriptions and accounts, but of the methods used to produce clothing, from the production of cloth to dyeing, assembly,and the workings of the CS depot system, and it was indeed, a nation-wide system. Confining issues to one depot for each theater is simplistic, and a danger for the amateur historian. Having said that, it is worth noting that although sky-blue was the regulation color for CS trousers, this was quickly abandoned due to the high cost of the indigo dye required for it's production. Hill's corps was noted at Sharpsburg as having federal trousers as well as greatcoats (and many, likely, federal jackets) but they had recently taken Harpers Ferry with it's vast stocks of clothing. What with the length of the campaign and the failure of both state supply and the failure oof the commutation system, it's no wonder they grabbed what they could. But as to Gettysburg, I'd place a lot less faith on the wide-spread use of federal clothing through all of the corps, the CS QM system having been brought up to speed and VERY large quantities of proper clothing being issued and available. That's not to say that there weren't areas, the few units that weren't up to speed, but uniformity, as it was known at that time, was the norm in the ANV, and not the motley, haphazard look that many would seem to want to believe. As in all things related to the ACW, you can never say "never". The war was simply too big for that. But too much emphasis is still being given to the post-war myth of the "ragged, rugged, rebel" when evidence points to the exact opposite as the norm. V/R |
mysteron | 28 Oct 2015 2:13 a.m. PST |
Thanks for the replies guys that has been an education and invite more questions. The blue-grey that some of you guys refer to is this the very same blue -grey that some of the officers mainly Longstreet and some of his officers wear in the film Gettysburg. Which leads to my next question. Are these uniforms therefore incorrect for 1863 but more suited to 1864? How accurate are the confederate uniforms in this which I think are worn by re enactors ? Should the confederate units in this show more uniformity than what is depicted or is it about right for 1863? The reason for asking is after studying the footage it is difficult to spot any 2 uniforms that are the same within units. I have also noticed perhaps an over use of sky blue trousers? |
avidgamer | 28 Oct 2015 3:49 a.m. PST |
Just so you know, many reenactor groups place little restriction on Reb uniform colors. Some groups are VERY strict. Also, reenactors attend events and sometimes fall in with fellow groups as guests when their own members don't attend as a group. In these cases you will see a wide variety of colors. It is also difficult to force new members to buy cloth all from the same vendor/supplier and in the same color. The best made uniforms (most authentic in terms of stitching, color, type of cloth and hand sewn button holes) costs a lot more than cheaper vendors. About blue trousers… some reenactors portray both sides and use their one pair of blue trousers for both armies. |
TKindred | 28 Oct 2015 6:55 a.m. PST |
For the record, the blue-grey cloth that is normally worn by officers is referred to as "cadet grey". Now, there were certainly enlisted clothing made from it, but it was more expensive and generally was worn by officers. Tge bluish-grey cloth referred to in the above posts for enlisted clothing is almost always made from imported English Army Cloth, and the bulk was produced by Abimelech Hainsworth, which is still in existence, and making cloth for the English Army as well. link The enlisted clothing made from the EAC was a darker, more bluish affair. Here's an example of an original coat made with it. This jacket was made under contract for te CS government by Peter Tait and Co, Limmerick, Ireland and imported by the tens of thousands to the confederacy. Tait also produced matching trousers and caps, as well as provided english pattern accoutrement sets.
link |
TKindred | 28 Oct 2015 6:58 a.m. PST |
Here's another example of a CS jacket made from English Army Cloth. link |
TKindred | 28 Oct 2015 7:04 a.m. PST |
Lastly, a fine reproduction of an artillery-trimmed Tait uniform. Interestingly, the issuing depots didn't care whether the jacket was trimmed with red or blue. It was issued from stocks to fill requests and there ae many instances from 1864 on of CS infantry wearing red-trimmed Tait jackets. This is one such example. cjdaley.com/taitjackets.htm
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Big Red | 28 Oct 2015 9:02 a.m. PST |
A member of Meade's staff observed "the more they serve, the less they look like soldiers and more they resemble day-laborers who had bought second-hand military clothes." And this was in the Union Army. As others have stated above, just depends on what look you are after with your units. |
john lacour | 28 Oct 2015 9:36 a.m. PST |
i LOL'ed at those sizes. 54??? |
donlowry | 28 Oct 2015 10:11 a.m. PST |
There was also a big difference between uniforms in Lee's army and that of Bragg, which got its uniforms from a different depot (Atlanta, I believe). IIRC, western Confederate uniforms were of a lighter gray than eastern ones. Also, remember that officers had to provide their own uniforms, so each one might be slightly different. And what they wore in the field might be much different than what they wore in photographs. |
mysteron | 30 Oct 2015 4:21 a.m. PST |
Thanks guys for your input I think I may end up doing generic units as I still think this is very complicated for doing actual units . Unfortunately I think I am perhaps more confused now than before :) |
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