"Rule suggestions for playing Battle of Liegnitz 1241" Topic

So a friend bought some Fireforge Mongols and I'm
going to paint up Poles and Hungarians. All in 28mm if it matters. But trying to decide on a set of rules for playing the battle.

How detailed? Could use some rules requirements/tastes.

How about BBDBA (v3.0)??

Or you could try Lion Rampant

He needs a rule for a reasonably big battle.
You could adapt the Pefect captain crusaders as he has good rules for Mongols and the like and the variation for europeans of the time.

Impetus would do too.

He needs a rule for a reasonably big battle.

How do you know?

If he is looking for rules for a "big" battle then "Big Battle DBA" (BBDBA) will do that very well.

On the Junior General website there is a set of fast play rules specifically for Leignitz, how they play I don't know but the link is

link

Just scroll down to Medieval.

Hey Guys,
I guess I need to set down some guidelines.
Looking at Cav units of 8-12 maybe.
rules that require a bit of finesse in running Mongol lt cav,
maybe like old Tactica or Armati, Would prefer if the rules are still in production or easily available.

Something I've been pondering as well. I saw the Junior General website. A good place to start for ideas on unit size, etc…

MajorB
I don't know but Leignitz sure is a big battle.

Played it years ago using Medieval Warfare by Terry Gore. Whatever rules you use you need an option for feigned flight…we had to add it the rules but it is a critical consideration in this period.

Interesting, this was the battle I joined at a Club many years back. They were trying to convince me that they had great rules for ancients. I was given the Mongol right wing composed of light Horse Archers.

We were using DB??? something from the Barker stable of rules.

I rolled some dice and moved up to what I thought seemed reasonable missile fire range so I could start my Mongol cavalry off with volleys to harass the Christian Knights and infantry. I asked what the game range was for Mongol composite bows and got some blank looks and was informed that there was no missile fire, it was all "factored in" and I had to close to base to base and roll a dice.

Utterly astonished I then asked if they knew the history of Leignitz and indeed how light horse archer armies worked?

I haven't played ancients since but I can tell you to ignore anything from Phil Barker, anything with a DBXXXX in its description if you want to even loosely represent what actually happened at Leignitz.

I rolled some dice and moved up to what I thought seemed reasonable missile fire range so I could start my Mongol cavalry off with volleys to harass the Christian Knights and infantry. I asked what the game range was for Mongol composite bows and got some blank looks and was informed that there was no missile fire, it was all "factored in" and I had to close to base to base and roll a dice.

You obviously failed to take account of the ground scale of the game or the level of abstraction.

You will find horse archers work much better in DBA v3.0 (and thereby the Big Battle version of the same) than they did in previous versions.

Indeed 'contact' in DBx also represents close range missile shooting. Horse archers are almost impossible to destroy and just flee if beaten, so they can come back again.
Which is all as it should be – historically horse archers shot at very close ranges (a few yards) because they could use their speed to get away.
The handling of horse archers is fine in DBx – you just need to adjust your preconceptions.

# nsolomon99. That was one of the reasons why I never took to the DBA-Z series of rules. That and the out of period games. I am also part of the clichéd 'Old School' of wargaming in that I like my units to look like units and not just a collection of individual 'elements' that happen to be going the same way.

That and the out of period games.

Out of period games???

"Out of period games": Non-historical match-ups I guess

…historically horse archers shot at very close ranges (a few yards) because they could use their speed to get away.

Not always. In fact, only when the enemy was practically immobile. I.e. close to defeat. A body of cavalry that can still charge was not a target to go in "at very close range (a few yards)". The cavalry would catch the horsearchers if they tried that.

So even Mongols shot from extreme range. And worked in mobile groups that could ride in, turn right, shoot along the front and break for the rear. Shooting "Parthian" style, right around to the left of dead astern was also possible. So getting in "close" wasn't the object. Not getting caught was to priority. The Steppes composite bow is a deadly weapon against mailed cavalry inside of 100 to 150 yards. Any cavalry not on barded horses is vulnerable from dropping shot clear out to 300 yards. The horses would not be fatally hurt, but the morale effect upon the riders would be a serious issue (the English did an infantry archer version of this at Agincourt, but at a somewhat shorter range than 300 yards in all probability).

You want some finesse running horsearchers.

link

I can promise you that our rules require correct moving of the figures as a unit, or else you can indeed get caught if heavy lancers get the drop on you. Running crusaders is one of my favorite challenges. Horsearchers are just such a pain to deal with.

Horsearchers work extremely well in our game. And the entire approach is to model different weapon systems and the tactics involved, and minimize abstraction….