Flashman14 | 14 Oct 2015 7:34 a.m. PST |
Inspired by this thread: TMP link and this line from the OP: "…in general it seems that in the UK, they prefer rules written by others in the UK who understand their style of gaming and their tastes". Is that assessment true? Do regional/national differences exist? If so, can the characteristics of each be classified? |
jameshammyhamilton | 14 Oct 2015 7:42 a.m. PST |
At the moment the main ruleset I play was written by a Kiwi. In the past I have played rules written by an Englishman (although you would not know from the way he writes the language) and I have also played rules written by a Welshman. |
MajorB | 14 Oct 2015 7:44 a.m. PST |
From my UK perspective, it seems that US players prefer rules that "dot all the i's and cross all the t's" whereas UK gamers are quite happy with rules that require a bit of thought and common sense. |
Saber6 | 14 Oct 2015 7:53 a.m. PST |
There may be something to that. What is the first thing that US players did to DBA? Correct and clarify the language. I think the biggest difference I have seen is that (in my experience) US players are willing to devote a full day to a game (4+ hours), usually with lots of players and figures. UK games seem to be related to 1 on 1 games that take a smaller table and finish in 1-2 hours. The difference in fighting Waterloo at 1:60 vs. Attack on La Haye Saint at the same scale. |
haywire | 14 Oct 2015 7:54 a.m. PST |
From what I understand, in the US, tournament play is paramount so rules need to be clarified and points need to be fair, etc… This is mostly in the game stores and at conventions. Home games and convention one offs are totally different and are more like the UK games. |
PiersBrand | 14 Oct 2015 7:56 a.m. PST |
Phew… glad I game in Ireland. |
advocate | 14 Oct 2015 8:00 a.m. PST |
I think the biggest difference I have seen is that (in my experience) US players are willing to devote a full day to a game (4+ hours), usually with lots of players and figures. UK games seem to be related to 1 on 1 games that take a smaller table and finish in 1-2 hours. UK player. I play every week at a club, with a maximum game length of 4 hours and generally a closer to 3. On the other hand I played a 6 hour game on Saturday. As for rules: we play a variety of UK, European and American rules. |
Gone Fishing | 14 Oct 2015 8:04 a.m. PST |
Well said, MajorB. The owner of our local gaming shop here in California frequently complains that British rules never "cover their bases" and leave too many decisions up to players. The store's bread and butter is tournament and competitive gaming, so I'd guess that is what's fueling his observation. While I nod my head and try to look sympathetic, I have to admit my heart is completely on the side of trusting players to make some decisions, with the awareness all situations can never be covered, and all rules will have at least a few holes. But then, I loathe tournament gaming and so such things don't matter much to me. As long as rules don't have too many gaps and emphasize fun over competition, I'll like them, whichever side of the pond they come from. |
Weasel | 14 Oct 2015 8:07 a.m. PST |
There's a stereotype of American rules being more aimed at tournament play and UK rules being more or a vague collection of suggestions, but hoenstly, nowadays, I think it's all pretty interchangeable. |
Dynaman8789 | 14 Oct 2015 8:12 a.m. PST |
Isn't GW big in the UK as well as the US? Depending on the definition of wargame the answer would be "the US and UK are exactly the same". FOW is (was?, don't keep track) THE historical game for a while here in the US, appeared to be in the UK as well – so even in historical circles the answer would be "exactly the same". Only those playing with the leftover dregs (myself included…) would have a different style of game if that is true. |
MajorB | 14 Oct 2015 8:17 a.m. PST |
FOW is (was?, don't keep track) THE historical game for a while here in the US, appeared to be in the UK as well I went to one of the bigger UK shows on Sunday, SELWG. I don't think I saw ANYBODY playing FOW. |
Martin Rapier | 14 Oct 2015 8:27 a.m. PST |
"FOW is (was?, don't keep track) THE historical game for a while here in the US, appeared to be in the UK as well" I don't think so. I think I saw one game of FOW once at our club. 40+ players who meet every week…. Now, down in Chesterfield on the other hand (a whole ten miles down the road), I believe FOW was relatively popular. We are all islands unto our ourselves. I would however support MajorBs observations. I wept with frustration wading through the verbiage when trying to convert CD into a decent playsheet of two sides of A4. It is really a very simple game, under all the words. Fire&Fury is just a the same, A really simple game expanded into a ton of verbiage, pictures and diagrams. Sometimes all the words are a nice bonus though – the main reason I bought 1870 and 1866 was for the historical narrative and maps. It isn't all shiny and wonderful this side of the pond though. It could be argued that DBA is a little on the terse side. It could very well be argued that some of RFCMs rules would benefit from a bit of proof-reading, and that Megablitz is so vague that unless you are fortunate enough to have played several games with the author it is a little difficult to get into. FOG however sent me to sleep in the first three pages. |
gunnerphil | 14 Oct 2015 8:28 a.m. PST |
Never played in America or with American rules. But I have played in UK, Spain, and Germany with local club rules. Each were different. Not better not worse just different. If you watch an American TV program and a British program on same subject they have a different feel. So I hope that American games and gamers are different to UK ones. Again not better not worse just different. I guess it comes down to do you want a world of Starbucks or a world local coffee shops. |
avidgamer | 14 Oct 2015 8:35 a.m. PST |
In the area where I live here is US, all the gamers I play with are easy going. We'd love to at least not have to try to figure out what the author of the rules meant, to fix problems/puzzles. At times it seems the rules were never play tested! We come up with issues too quick that in a 'normal' game EVERYONE would stumble upon. That's just bad writing or testing. I feel GW is VERY bad at this. Their rules are horrible. We just add our house rules but… it shouldn't have to be that way. Frequent FAQ's are a thing of the past. We play a LOT off games that are 6+ hours. The amount of stuff on the table is a good chance to use the vast collections we have of painted miniatures. You never use them in small games. On a Friday or Saturday night we'll start at 6 pm and go until 2 am a lot. These are usually 3 players per side or more. |
Random Die Roll | 14 Oct 2015 8:36 a.m. PST |
From the US perspective Almost every popular game has a weekly gaming session devoted to tournament style play. This is usually multiple hours or multiple sessions--awarding points or moving through brackets--and most always leading up to a winning prize or incentive. Also, most gaming store hosts have some sort of buy in. And when there are monies or prizes involved---much rules lawyering is going on. So yes, US rules need to be very clear on multiple gaming situations. |
Extra Crispy | 14 Oct 2015 8:40 a.m. PST |
Isn't GW UK based? And FoW – Australia right? So perhaps what we're really discussins is not a national difference but a difference between Tournament Play and non? |
toofatlardies | 14 Oct 2015 9:07 a.m. PST |
Extra Crispy is correct, the distinction is between Tournament and non-Tournament play. However my own experience suggest this certainly is relevant when considering national differences, albeit only if we are allowed to generalise. In the UK and Europe the norm, if we generalise, is to play games at a local club with friends with whom we tend to game regularly for numerous years. That means that clubs tend to pick rule sets which they like and then stick with them, whatever the popular trends are. So, you are likely to get one club in your town playing X set of rules for a period and another playing Y, and neither club will be bothered about what the other club is playing. In the US (and I presume other nations with vast distances involved) the norm, if we generalise, is for gamers to get their fix of gaming at wargame conventions where they travel long distances to attend and where the imperative is to get a game because it may be a long wait until the next game as there is no local club meeting on a weekly or even monthly basis. In that situation the gamer is VERY concerned about what set of rules he is going to play. There is no point in turning up with an army for a set of rules which is not being used. So the gamer is much more likely to pick the big hit game which he knows will have tournaments running and thereby guarantee himself numerous games. Now, both of these statement depend entirely on the acceptance that we are generalising. There are local clubs in the US, especially at local gaming stores, but again a store based "club" will again be much more likely to be pointed in the direction if whatever game system the store owner is making money from. That is likely to be reflected by the tournaments that the store owner is running in order to promote the products he is selling, so we are, once again, back to the same products being promoted and used at the Convention. This is very much reflected by a greater diversity in games being played in club situations than in convention or store situations. In Europe the competition wargaming scene is shrinking every year almost to the point of invisibility compared to what it was twenty-five or thirty years ago. In the US that is not the case. Having been a professional wargamer for fifteen years and involved in writing in the hobby press for about twenty-five years I have seen a big divergence in the way UK and US wargaming are splitting apart into two very distinct types of hobby. The US is heading much more towards a situation where one set of compeition/tournament focussed rules dominates the hobby. This set of rules is very like to have a full range of official figures and additional codexes and will be popular until the next single big thing comes along. The UK and Europe are undoubtedly influenced by trends but much more likely to be playing a diverse range of rule sets from a broader range of publishers in a non-competitive environment as they know that they'll be playing these rules reglarly with their mates for years. However, that statement only hold water if we are allowed to generalise. There are, of course, many exceptions which prove the rule. I suspect that the geographical density of wargamers is what drives these differences rather than any particular national characteristic. I suspect that most US wargamers would be very glad to have a local wargaming club playing non-competitive games within a fifteen minute drive. Sadly that seems to be a real rarity. |
Saber6 | 14 Oct 2015 9:17 a.m. PST |
There's a stereotype of American rules being more aimed at tournament play Not in my experience. Nearly all the Tournament based games seemed to be UK based rules (and FoW). Look at our conventions, Tournaments are a small portion of the games and look to see what rules are being used. |
Timmo uk | 14 Oct 2015 9:36 a.m. PST |
I'm going to have to generalise in my comments as well and it can be dangerous to do so but with some very notable exceptions I tend to think that the UK hobby is quite traditional and conservative in its tastes and resistant to change. I'm not sure if that's the case in the US. Is it? Of course there is a core of folks for whom the output of TFL was and remains a huge breath of fresh air but for example, mention single rank basing and steel bases, both very common from what I gather in the US, and you're certainly placed in the 'weirdo minority' in the UK. Equally there is a strong old school movement in the UK, is there in the US? |
Weasel | 14 Oct 2015 9:59 a.m. PST |
The "old school movement" in the US is more prevalent in the RPG community, where there's been a big revival of old school roleplaying, (the "OSR") reviving ancient modes of play and even mechanics. |
Ed the Two Hour Wargames guy | 14 Oct 2015 10:15 a.m. PST |
Yes, definitely Tournament versus Non-Tournament. Having attended over one hundred US conventions I can say that Tournament players do not make up a large portion of the attendance. Back when I played WRG Ancients Tournaments I remember it taking up almost all of my convention time. |
Der Alte Fritz | 14 Oct 2015 10:26 a.m. PST |
There is a very active "old school movement" in the US that really took off in 2005 with the establishment of the Yahoo group Old School Wargamers, although I haven't visited that forum in several years now. I know a lot of US gamers who play with the Charge or The Wargame Rules for their historical wargaming, so this has nothing to do with RPG. Speaking for myself, I game with a regular group in Brown Deer, WI that meets approximately once a month, so most of my gaming involves playing the game at another person's house. I attend a couple of conventions each year and game there too, but most of my gaming is in-home. |
Weasel | 14 Oct 2015 11:42 a.m. PST |
Ah, I was looking at it more from what is getting published, but I appreciate the info :) There's been a big "oldhammer" revival too lately, but I dunno if it's particularly geographic in nature. |
ubercommando | 14 Oct 2015 11:55 a.m. PST |
I agree wholeheartedly with the Lardies on this subject. I'll add that I think UK gamers tend to be more selective about what rules they want to play (they usually favour those that reinforce their held notions on history and gaming as well as being able to win with them). Take, for example, WW2 rules. If I were to think of the top 10 sets of rules for that period, one is from New Zealand, one from America, the rest from the UK. Gamers (and some designers) claim their preferred set is either more accurate or more fun than the rest. Some, not most, will refuse to play most of them. I've never been in a game where someone, at some point (and sometimes me) doesn't say "that's not very historically accurate" about either a rule or something that happened in the game that is a result of the rules being applied a certain way. Which is why UK gamers seldom can agree on what rules are "the one" for any given period. I don't know if that's a shared experience in the US but the impression I get is that Americans tend to play the game in front of them and not be so quick to dismiss a set. |
Navy Fower Wun Seven | 14 Oct 2015 12:50 p.m. PST |
My only experience wargaming in the US has been on a one-to-one invitational basis, when on port visits, with wealthy wargamers who invited me to stay with them for a day or so – these good folk had lavish resources but seemed to only solo game, and then lay on participation games at massive conventions once every few years. Both had written their own rules and, I know realise, had rather non-mainstream views about their period of interest, the ACW. Probably not helpful in this context except to point up how varied and independent the wargaming community can be in the US. And how generous and trusting Americans are! My experience of the UK scene was intermittent because I was in the Service, but seems to bear out the view above of a small club based community, with lots of small but healthy conventions attended by people who all knew each other. As in most things, I suspect the Australian scene is an amalgam of the US and UK – lots of small clubs, but most gamers regularly attend one or two (relatively) large conventions. Same in terms of rules, both US and UK authored rules are popular and have dedicated followers, as well of course as a dedicated following of a certain NZ ruleset! |
Doug MSC | 14 Oct 2015 1:42 p.m. PST |
I host a game at my home about once a month. The rules we use are home grown. We prefer simple style rules that allow the players to make decisions on their own but just enough rules to reflect the period we are gaming in. This Friday we will have a game with 16 players. I've never used a published rule set except a couple like the Sword and the Flame years ago. Our games usually last about 4 hours. Loads of fun! Not too worried about being historically correct in every detail. |
McKinstry | 14 Oct 2015 2:43 p.m. PST |
I play on the average weekly in the US and have multiple groups to choose from and have for years and once, got to play a game at a club in the UK. I really find casual social gaming pretty much the same everywhere. That said, I don't do tournaments or even pay attention to them so I'm inclined to agree with Extra Crispy and think and real differences are more tournament v social than US v UK. |
vtsaogames | 14 Oct 2015 3:10 p.m. PST |
the impression I get is that Americans tend to play the game in front of them and not be so quick to dismiss a set. You have not seen the Corlears Hook Fencibles in action. I haven't been to a convention this century. |
ubercommando | 14 Oct 2015 3:13 p.m. PST |
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Black Cavalier | 14 Oct 2015 4:00 p.m. PST |
I count myself very luck to have 2 game stores with large play areas in my local town in California, & a what I consider a very UK-style group of friends who are willing to try anything and everything. Of course, the group includes 2-3 published game designers, a founder of a small wargames terrain company & one of contributors to both Basic & Advanced D&D. So it's a pretty unique group. |
raylev3 | 14 Oct 2015 9:04 p.m. PST |
I lived in the UK for eight years and played weekly in a very active club in addition to attending several shows each year. I don't think it's a style thing. I think there are two issues that drive HOW we each play. FIRST, in the UK, there are gamers everywhere and plenty of them, who all live close together (by US standards). The gaming scene is generally based on local clubs and shows are about display games and vendors. In the US, we tend to have to travel MUCH farther to find other players with few exceptions, and our games tend to revolve around our homes. If we play outside the home we just get together with a few friends at a local gaming store, but this option tends to be dominated by fantasy games. And our shows last for days and focus on playing games. SECOND: If there is any reason UK gamers tend to play UK rules writers more it's for the reasons listed above. It's easy for miniature and rules producers to travel to local shows or even clubs to "sell" their products. This allows the local punters easier access to everything. Heck, I personally played against Rob Broom at our local club once…I'm a fan of his games, even though he kicked my butt in the last turn. If Americans play rules that require more clarification, and I don't think that's necessarily the case, it's because we don't get the opportunity to play as often, and therefore don't have the opportunity to hash out "gaps" in a rules set. And consider the popularity of UK games in the US such as Black Powder or other "UK-type" games such as FoW, SAGA, etc. (I know they're not UK, but in style similar in conversational tone.) I would also say the UK is more based on tournament games, with some exceptions, whereas in the US gamers get together at shows to just play games, with some exceptions. I think that's why more UK rules have a point system, whereas I think most US rules use scenarios. (Of course, this is a gross generalization.) FWIW. Ray |
Meiczyslaw | 14 Oct 2015 9:26 p.m. PST |
Also, keep in mind that the US is a big place. No, bigger than that. As a result, you end up with regional differences even within the country. Take San Diego, for example: there are four major game stores in the city, and they've got their own focus games. The retailers do their best to support and SELL those games, so you've got (essentially) sponsored leagues and constant tournament-style play. And that's not counting the stuff that goes on in people's homes. At the other end of the scale you've got places like North Dakota, where the population is only slightly more dense than Matt Damon in a red desert. |
Martin Rapier | 14 Oct 2015 11:18 p.m. PST |
As noted above, I am sure geography contributes a lot to any differences in style. |
MajorB | 15 Oct 2015 1:48 a.m. PST |
I would also say the UK is more based on tournament games, I'm in the UK and I don't know ANY tournament gamers. |
Mike Target | 15 Oct 2015 3:45 a.m. PST |
Hereabouts it seems rather varied; the club I attend every week is rather large with 200+ members on the books apparently. Every week I go and spend 3-4 hours playing a single game (somes times two if the first is over quick) usually 1v1. These are often to a points value agreed the week before , when you'll just wander around and hunt down someone who is looking for a game. But we also do campaigns regularly, often several for different periods concurrently, and the games will become more scenario orientated. Games like FOW, KOW, and Xwing are probably the most regular at the moment, but on any given week you'll find a dozen different games being played of all shapes and sizes and genres. You can probably find someone prepared to play practically anything. We do one annual show, fairly small compared to say Britcon, or triples. Which features a mix of tourneys and large games that we wouldnt normally have the time and space for. Smaller events take place throughout the year, the occasional FOW tourney, with maybe 10 players over a day, or a campaign day, or just an excuse for a rediculously large ECW game with thousands of figures on the table. These last tend to be more scenario based, and involve putting every figure we can find on one table… So , er…varied is the word I think. |
christot | 15 Oct 2015 4:55 a.m. PST |
I think the exceptions entirely prove there isn't a rule. |
ubercommando | 15 Oct 2015 2:02 p.m. PST |
Here's a thought….could it be something in the heritage of wargaming in the US and UK that influences styles now? Casting my mind back to the 70s and 80s, I played mostly board wargames with some miniatures gaming (if the old guard of gamers would allow under 15s to join in). Almost every single board wargame came from the US (Avalon Hill, SPI, GDW, Yaquinto) and the rules all had a particular style: 4.1.1. Movement The Phasing Player may move any or all of their units, or stacks of units, up to and including their Movement Factor (MF) whilst paying the cost of terrain entered into (see 4.1.5, Terrain Effects). Units controlled by the Phasing Player may not enter the Zone of Control (ZOC) of any units belonging to the Non-Phasing Player (see 4.1.2, Zones of Control). Off the top of my head, I can't think of any UK board wargame that were like the AH, SPI, GDW classics. It was mainly miniatures rules. Now contrast the board game rule with your average UK miniatures rules set of the same period. "Players, on their bound, will write their movement orders explaining what each unit will do that turn. These need not be detailed. For example "The 1st platoon will advance towards the church"." I've noticed that some of those 1970s board game designers from America subsequently went into designing miniatures rules so maybe, and this is just a suggestion, that how we in our respective countries go about wargaming is influenced to some degree by the gaming heritage we've inherited from the 1970s and 80s? |
Henry Martini | 15 Oct 2015 5:41 p.m. PST |
I've made that very point on TMP a number of times over the years, ubercommando. I think it's the crux of what distinguishes the two styles. America had professional game designers, whereas the UK had amateur 'rules' writers. The core assumptions differed: US designers started from the position of producing a tightly written technical instruction manual intended to communicate with clarity a coherent game system, in which the designer set the game parameters and there was no reason to consider any action not mentioned in the text, whereas British writers (usually wargamers with no professional technical writing background) were loosely conveying a grab-bag of discrete 'rules' that assumed – to the point where it was often actually made explicit in the text – that 'anything can be done that would happen in real war'. With decades of cultural exchange and intellectual cross-fertilisation the distinction isn't quite as clear as it once was, but I think it continues to hold true in essence. Personally, if I'm trying to learn a set of relatively complicated procedures I prefer the American approach. In itself it promises a more focussed and refined product. |
BobGrognard | 16 Oct 2015 11:25 a.m. PST |
If the US approach does a "more concussed and refined product", how is it that the majority of successful wargames rules are published in the UK? Indeed, how come the UK and Europe support three glossy wargames magazines and the US has no equivalent publications? |
MajorB | 16 Oct 2015 1:31 p.m. PST |
whereas British writers (usually wargamers with no professional technical writing background) Don Featherstone was an accomplished technical writer in his specialist field of physiotherapy. |
MajorB | 16 Oct 2015 1:32 p.m. PST |
If the US approach does a "more concussed and refined product", how is it that the majority of successful wargames rules are published in the UK? Maybe the answer is right there – the US approach suffers from concussion!! |
ubercommando | 16 Oct 2015 2:10 p.m. PST |
I'm wondering what the state of wargaming with miniatures was like in 1970s USA? Board wargaming was big back in those days but I hardly hear about the miniatures side of the hobby at that time. Could it be that the hobby in the US has moved from board and counters to miniatures over the years? |
arthur1815 | 16 Oct 2015 2:17 p.m. PST |
Personally, I don't want my wargames to be 'a set of relatively complicated procedures', nor do I enjoy reading 'a tightly written instruction manual' so I prefer the so-called 'British' approach. |
raylev3 | 16 Oct 2015 9:13 p.m. PST |
I'm in the UK and I don't know ANY tournament gamers. My club had quite a few, and many of the show have competitions. Played in a few myself. |
BobGrognard | 16 Oct 2015 10:04 p.m. PST |
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Royal Marine | 17 Oct 2015 5:21 p.m. PST |
UK gamers start with a nice cup of tea. US … are just unlucky with Cwoffeeeee. |