"KIckstarter - It's not all bad ,,,,," Topic

So far I have pitched in for a total of 14 Kickstarters that funded and should have produced goods -

Dark Skies New pledge

Steampunk Militia – Pending
Things could be worse mugs – Pending
Reaper Bones – Pending
Waterloo – Pending
Wings Of Glory – Pending

Martian Front – Vary late, but getting there 6/10
Winter War – Very late, but getting there 5/10
Ice-Age animals – Total Fraud 0/10
Doublesix Dice – Arrived this week – 10/10
Great War – Arrived 10/10
Steampunk animals – Arrived 10/10
Steampunk Vampire – Arrived 10/10
Chibi Gaslight – Arrived 10/10

So that's 1 total rip-off, 5 filled in full, 2 very late, 5 pending and 1 that still running. I don't think I've done too badly overall.

Interestingly the 2 very late ones are for projects that massively over-subscribed and created very serious problems for the companies concerned. This makes me wary of KS that over-sub in future – a typical example being the recent Conan one. Love the idea but so heavily over subbed that I avoided like the plague.

An average of about 7/10 which I don't think is too bad. What is your ratio ?

Not a fan of kickstarters. One delivered one year late. One which is already two years late and still waiting. One cancelled. The last one actually looks as if it will deliver on time. Tell you the end of November.

Even one ripoff out of 14 I would consider doing badly. I HATE getting ripped off…

I bit on Conan, and I'm very satisfied with the communication. Their issue is with the pledge manager and a number of folks who have yet to commit to their pledge, but it does not seem to be holding up the works. They have simply stated that those who have not completed the pledge will be served last, and delivery is expected to commence this month. We shall see…

6 delivered, 2 pending + more 1 just backed this week.
The 2 pending are by Reaper – slow but secure.

I am probably in the same general area:

Dark Age Outpost: just ended – pending
Dwarven Forge 2x: Dungeons and Caverns (on time, full value – no issues): 10/10
Mantic 2x: Mars Attack (close to on time, full value – replaced a missing item quickly) 9/10 excellent, Dungeon Saga (a bit late, good value) still waiting 8/10 but may move to 9/10 depending on when I get it.
Tavern Dungeon Décor (Johnny Lauck): 10/10 I would give it more if I could, he keeps it small to deliver quickly
Trenchworx and Terrain Tiles: 10/10 bought through our group but delivered very close to on time.
Martian Front (Alien Dungeon/Arch of War): Late, like Guthroth said but I would give it maybe a 7/10 since most of the stuff to play most games was delivered in the first phase but one of the biggest problems is lack of communication
Robotech (Paladium): This is a mess 3/10. It is not what they haven't delivered (which is still a fair bit) it is just the length of the delays (Dec 2013) and poor communication – when you start talking about changing scales for future systems before delivering your current obligations – you may be having a problem. Note this is not a shipping charges issues like some KS have had. I would agree with Guthroth on this one that over-subscribing is one of the issues.
So I would say maybe a bit higher than 7/10 but I will also say after Robotech I started to take a more cautious approach to KS and go with companies I know and trust that I am sure could deliver. Biggest disappointment has been Martian Front. I know the AoW folks and I trust them, understand the problem with resin, and know they will deliver, but I think they missed the mark with communications to the backers. Kickstarters continue to be an interesting change to funding new projects in the hobby but I think it also reflects the general small business market where a number of smalls fail, some are successful and some struggle to get by.

I'm pretty cautious in what I back, the one time I went with my heart (the reprint of Up Front) I got burned.

I have backed 32 Kickstarters, mostly game related.

Of those:

4 Are pending
(1 is two years late although it seems that they are actually shipping now)
1 is dead (Up Front)
27 Delivered
10 On Time or even early
17 Late, most of those no more than three months late, one was 3 years late.

I think one complete miss out of 32 is pretty good.

I have also backed two projects on Indiegogo. Both of those delivered, one early one late.

I finally got my Kingdom Death kickstarter…it was ONLY about 2 years late in fulfillment.

Relic Knights was also a pretty good laugh.

12 completed and received product.
2 Cancelled by producer, no charges to me.
6 open and waiting for product or completion of pledges.
So far I'm batting 1000!

6 backed, 1 failed to meet goal, 1 completed (slightly late, but no problem), 4 outstanding, 3 of which are nearing the delivery date, 1 a month late and will be a bit later still but I work from the same room as the guys doing that one, so I get to have a daily update on their progress (and they are working hard); if it goes belly up I know where they are and who to complain to. It won't though.

I have only backed one. Conan. Supposed to deliver this month. We will see. Not really worried about it after hearing of so many problems with others.

2 for 2, fully delivered on time.

68 backed, delivered 50, waiting on 17 1 is not done being funded. 2 are from the thief Paul Lidberg of team frog studios, almost 3 years late and no communication (he stole $8,017 USD from 2 projects) yet he still backs other projects.
the rest are still in the works. But even with the likes of unscrupulous people like Lidbeg kickstater is still good for me As is Indiegogo where I have done 12 campaigns and have received all 12

My notes say I've pledged 3594 euros in total on KS and have had 3052 euros' worth of pledges delivered so far(85%) and I don't have any pending pledges that I would worry about not being honored.

> What is your ratio ?

Depends. Risky KS, particularly "First Created" by creators with little or no retail experience, I don't expect much and don't pledge much. Lost $25 USD on these projects, and haven't pledged more than $66 USD on such projects.

Otherwise, I look for creators with previous KS and retail experience: CMON, MCG, Reaper, Dwarven Forge, and Stonemaier Games come to mind. Some of these projects have a $100 USD minimum, so for that amount of money, I'm *usually* pretty careful. All rewards delivered, with occasional delays.

In between are small companies that have run smaller KS successfully before: Idyllwild Games, RAINN, RAFM, MegaMiniatures, Frontline Games, Acheson Creations, etc. I feel pretty secure about them, but most of these are the first KS I've pledged for.

Green Eye Games and Monolith have a solid staff behind them, but are new companies, so still have their share of risk, and I expect serious delays.

My results:

Collected pledges
36 projects

Warts and Wings!
Estimated delivery: Nov 2015

Canadian Corps #1
The 24 page print edition of Canadian Corps #1
Estimated delivery: Oct 2015

ProMatz – Industrial Grade Gaming Mats by Game Matz
||| THE 3x3 SQUARE (1 MAT) |||

Estimated delivery: Jan 2016

Reaper Miniatures Bones 3: The Search for Mr. Bones!
(WAVE 3 SHIPPING) This reward level will get y…

Estimated delivery: Sep 2016

Ral Partha's Chaos Wars PENDING
Warbands: Receive a set of Chaos Wars figures suitable f…

Estimated delivery: Dec 2015

These should have arrived:

Magnetic War Mats – Fix the Slip arrived
1 36'x36' inch Magnetic War Mat 1 Mat Travel Case 20 Ba…

GameMatz – Gaming Terrain Game Mats arrived
||| THE EARLY BIRD |||

Tavern Dungeon Decor 28mm miniature scenery terrain arrived
Basic set includes 33 figures.

15mm Minis and Rules for Adventures in the Lost Lands arrived
Adventures in the Lost Lands – A stand-alone set of rules…

Space Movers Board Game and Comic Adventure RELAUNCH
$1.00 USD Thank you for helping make Space Movers a reality.

Polyhedral Dragon Scales® Metal Designer Gaming Dice
£1.00 GBP Support us and get updates – Every last pound counts!

Other World Mapper – Map design software
$1.00 USD Our thanks for helping us create Other World Mapper and t…

RPG Gamer T-Shirts LEVEL 4! ArmorClass10.com
Buckler~ If you don't have the funds for a shirt because …

Five Moons RPG by Sean K Reynolds
$1.00 USD GENEROUS PATRON: Your name in the credits for contributin…

Worldspinner: Fantasy RPG Worldbuilder & Map Maker
$10.00 USD LEWIS & CLARK – One year membership: use Worldspinner to …

Estimated delivery: Jan 2015

Worldbox: A Pathfinder Compatible Toolkit
$1.00 USD GENERIC NPC #1 A thank you in the credits and my sincere…

Harwood Hobbies: Next Wave of Wargaming Miniatures
$1.00 USD HH Supporter – If you want to chip in to show your suppor…

Big Box Terrain: Angry Mojo Games and Terrain Lasercraft
$1.00 USD Our Thanks! Get our eternal thanks, your name on our bac…

Flat Plastic Miniatures
$5.00 USD Thank you so much! Every donation helps, and you will gai…

Militia Miniatures – 28mm Modern Mercenaries!
£2.00 GBP No Reward

The Yan'drassi Invasion – New 15mm Scifi Alien Force
$1.00 USD No Reward

A House in Your Hand – architectural miniature model kits
£1.00 GBP

Steampunk Infantry Support Weapons 28mm Miniatures arrived
£17.00 GBP Close Support Early Bird – 1 Weapon & Platform – Plus any…

Water Tiles arrived
--------------- River Tiles --------------- Receive two …

Resin Terrain for Miniature Gaming arrived
$19.00 USD SMALL CUSTOM – Select $12 USD worth of terrain. This pledge l…

ExoSkeleton Assault Squad and Hura Technocracy – 15mm Sci-Fi arrived
Fireteam – Two Squads, Your choice of Human or Hura Squ…

Tooth and Sword arrived
NEUTRALS UNLOCKED. New bonus pledge level for the first …

Man vs. Apocalypse ~ Will you survive the End of the World? arrived
Receive two physical decks of MAN VS…

Hospital 911 – An All Things Zombie 15mm Miniatures Project arrived
taff & Civilians – 5 unique minis in hospital garb and 5…

KieryGeek: A vlog of games, comics, and geekery arrived
$20.00 USD Twitter Shout-Out and a KieryGeek Tape Measure! Perfect …

Meridian Miniatures Steampunk Army arrived
Sergeant: 4 infantry sets, 2 specialist sets

Itar's Workshop – Dungeon Terrain and Accessories arrived
Basic Accessory Set. The Basic Accessory set includes: B…

28mm Steampunk Inspired Heavy Weapons & Carriage Miniatures arrived
One complete Anti-Tank Laser, and one of each of the alte…

Gnomish Adventurers Box Set arrived
McKrakken – Includes McKrakken's Glory Squad and associat…

Bug Hunt Corridors arrived
$100.00 USD Level 1 Corridors – The basic Bug Hunt Corridors set. At…

THIS one may never ship as such! This was de-railed by international politics, IMO.

Women Combat Pilots of WWII
An eBook featuring a pair of "then and now" photos of eac…

Uncollected pledges
3 projects

Tabletop Props
Pledged Unsuccessful

SuperSystem 4th Edition: Super Miniature Battles (Canceled)
Pledged Canceled

ArcWorlde – The Fantasy Skirmish Wargame
Dropped Successful

I've only funded half a dozen or so, but it definitely seems that the large, multi-component game projects are much more likely to suffer endless problems and delays.

More finite projects, say one book or a small set of terrain, fare much better and seem to be on time or even early. That's likely the path I will take from now on.

Martian Front is trying to make things right with gift certificates, but it still leaves a bad taste in your mouth when they can't deliver centerpiece miniatures they showed concepts/prototypes of over two years ago. KS and politicians both tend to over-promise!

Maybe I spoke too soon…

I just received an email telling me that the ship date for my Conan KS pledge and expansion selections is now January 2016. Ok, not too bad considering what I've seen here. It will make a nice Christmas gift to myself!!

I get into conversations at various conventions whether lick starters are scams or not. I can see the points of view for both sides.

From my position as a retailer, there is no good side. The Kickstarter soaks up the potential sales for new ranges or systems. So I do not support any. Definitely not with any money.

I invested in way too many kickstarters. I got ripped off 6 times, disappointed with product 2-4 times and the rest came out very cool.

The problem I have is the over saturation of stuff. Even if you can afford to back any you want. The amount of stuff piles up on you quickly.

I often wonder how it effects the market but I dont remember too many that had more than 10k-20k of backers.

Probably the best thing is that KS Exclusives will fetch a good price if you decide to sell, maybe a few will even cover the cost of the kickstarter!

So far I've pledged to 20 successful Kickstarters.

1 hasn't even finished their campaigns, but are successfully funded and creator has a perfect history doing KS. No worries there.

5 have been been fulfilled on time or within a reasonable communicated delay.

2 are still have plenty of time left to be fulfilled (Bones III and Car Wars Arenas)

9 are $1 USD pledges for projects I wish could be completed, but I knew better, and wanted a good seat for the trainwreck.

Thus far I've only had three Kickstarters that could qualify as disappointments. One was for a neat RPG I wanted to play with the kids, it's four months past due, and the author is silent, but I do have a 40-page full color, tons of artwork pdf of the demo rules, pre-generated characters, and enough campaign backstory to keep me encouraged. It's great stuff.

My second is a D&D Egyptian themed module that I supported largely because the guys were local and running stuff at nearby cons. On the month the project was due, they moved to Oregon. I'll probably be disappointed with the product regardless, so I'm already at peace with the loss for fifteen or twenty bucks.

The last disappointment is the RAFM Call of Cthulhu 7th minis. There's a poorly communicated comedy of errors involved post campaign, missing money, shoddy product, etc. The good news is most of the backers have their stuff and it's gorgeous. I only pledged for certain items, and with their final push I may get it from Canada by the end of the month. In the KS world, the delay isn't even horrendous: ten months late.

Nickstarters, SPECTRE Miniatures & Kajaki are the only ones that I have backed and all have delivered on time with quality.

A

'1.00 USD pledge for projects I wish could be completed, but I knew better, and wanted a good seat for the trainwreck.'

That's harsh but probably fun in a perverse fashion.

I might try it.

Conan is not delivering this month, guys. They have said it will arrive 1st Quarter 2016.

Conan was never going to be able to meet that deadline with all the stuff they kept adding. Hopefully it shows up before I die of old age.

> From my position as a retailer, there is no good side.

"This is the complaint I hear the most. Searching KS right now brings me to Bezier Games One-Night Vampire. I've played One-Night Werewolf at a demo at a distributor open house. It was fun. I can see potential for this game. I will shelve it right next my other Bezier Games products on my "Under $25 USD shelf", and I will probably sell 25/year.

It has 3500 backers right now.

Based on which estimate of the number of game stores in the United States you use, that's about 3-5 copies per store that have been "sucked out". In other words, 12% to 20% of the sales I "would have" gotten my first year. After 10 years, it's an insignificant figure, of course. But how many copies will I sell because people recognize the game from the Kickstarter campaign? That's harder to measure.

Kickstarter offers contributors some risk. There's the risk of non-delivery. There's the months- or year-long wait for delivery. I'd rather pay $25 USD for a game now than $15 USD for a game next year, and I'm not the only one. There's the chance that the final product will look less awesome than the graphics used in the video. That's disappointing. Many people see the Kickstarter but don't contribute. They wait…and when they recognize the game on the shelf, you have a higher chance of conversion than if they didn't.

Most Kickstarters won't get anywhere near that many backers. A locally-produced game, Dungeon Attack, had 235 backers. The company provided my store with a sign, does regular demos, and is starting to develop a bigger catalog. I sell several copies a month. If they hadn't Kickstarted, I'd carry it anyway, because they're personal friends. However, the successful KS means that I'm not the only one. Other people are interested in this game. Of those interested, only 235—internationally—took "my" sales. Divide that by the number of game stores in the English-speaking world, and my "loss" rounds to zero. My gain is $240 USD in annual sales from a game that—without Kickstarter—would never have appeared on my shelf. That's a clearly lopsided scale."

link

With the total rip-off, what happens to your money? Is it gone for good? Does KS refund? Or is this a big "trust" issue – you dump money into a blind pot and hope?

Thanks

If you are in the UK it's gone. You might have recourse elsewhere though. I only lost 15USD, so I'm not too bummed by it.

@Marc: It's trust. That's why most backers only back projects by a creator who has a track record. Cool Mini or Not… Reaper Miniatures… Dwarven Forge… Can't help you if you only play historical miniatures games!