"Bailen French Order of Battle" Topic
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Westerner | 05 Oct 2015 8:06 a.m. PST |
Apologies if this has been covered. One area of the French OOB that remains obscure to me is that of the cavalry; I cannot find agreement in various sources. The II Corps d' Observation appears to have had "heavy" (Cuirassiers and Carabiniers) and "light" (Chasseurs) Provisional Regiments. Some orders of battle mention a number of provisional dragoon regiments (composition unknown, though 1st and 6th Regiments have been mentioned as at Bailen). Can't seem to get the sources to match. Can anyone give me a pointer, please? |
Ligniere | 05 Oct 2015 8:54 a.m. PST |
In Volume 1 of Oman Dupont's cavalry are itemized as follows: General Fresia [Brigade Rigaud and Dupre] 1st Provisional Cuirassier, 778 2nd Provisional Cuirassier, 681 1st Provisional Chasseurs, 556 2nd Provisional Chasseurs, 662 6th Provisional Dragoons, 623 Total 15 Squadrons – so possibly three squadrons per provisional regiment, which would suggest between 180 and 260 men per squadron. How many were actually active and available at Bailen is not identified. |
Westerner | 05 Oct 2015 9:14 a.m. PST |
Perfect, thank you. Cross referencing to the Nafziger OOB for the II Corps d' Observation de la Gironde: 1st Provisional Cuirassier, 778: lst Carabinier Regiment (l co)(4/ll9) 2nd Carabinier Regiment (l co)(4/ll8) lst Cuirassier Regiment (l co)(4/l42) 2nd Cuirassier Regiment (l co)(2/l38) 3rd Cuirassier Regiment (l co)(2/l00) Total: 663 2nd Provisional Cuirassier, 681: 5th Cuirassier Regiment (l co)(2/l09) 9th Cuirassier Regiment (l co)(2/64) l0th Cuirassier Regiment (l co)(2/96) llth Cuirassier Regiment (l co)(3/l20) l2th Cuirassier Regiment (l co)(2/l00) Total: 500 1st Provisional Chasseurs, 556 lst Chasseur a Cheval Regiment (l co)(2/52) 2nd Chasseur a Cheval Regiment (l co)(4/89) 5th Chasseur a Cheval Regiment (l co)(4/ll6) 7th Chasseur a Cheval Regiment (l co)(3/83) llth Chasseur a Cheval Regiment (l co)(l/58) Total: 412 2nd Provisional Chasseurs, 662 l2th Chasseur a Cheval Regiment (l co)(3/l25) l3th Chasseur a Cheval Regiment (l co)(3/96) l6th Chasseur a Cheval Regiment (l co)(2/85) 20th Chasseur a Cheval Regiment (l co)(4/l00) 2lst Chasseur a Cheval Regiment (l co)(4/ll5) Total: 537 6th Provisional Dragoons, 623 Apart from an indication that men of the 1st and 6th were present, I don't know the make up of this formation. |
Westerner | 06 Oct 2015 7:42 a.m. PST |
Now I am deeply confused. A provisional dragoon regiment is not given as part of II Corps d'Observation's original ORBAT. A later OOB, I think, June, OOB gives an additional regiment but describes it as the 6th Provisional Chasseur Regt! Elsewhere, an alternative OOB, also derived from Oman, gives Dupont's cavalry at Bailen as: 4th Division: General de division Frescia Brigade: General de brigade Prive lst Provisional Dragoon Regiment (l5/344) 2nd Provisional Dragoon Regiment (l7/499) Brigade: General de brigade Dupre lst Provisional Chasseur a Cheval Regiment (3l/474) 2nd Provisional Chasseur a Cheval Regiment (20/433) Brigade: General de brigade Boussart 6th Provisional Dragoon Regiment (9/442) Showing 6th Provisional Dragoon Regt, but the 1st and 2nd heavy or cuirassier provisional regiments as dragoons! Still no information of the composition of the 6th Provisional Dragoons! An article in the napoleon-series, Trophies of the Battle of Bailen, catalogues the troops and standards surrendered, and gives yet another variant: Privé's Brigade: 1st Rgt. Provisional Dragoons – 6 coys 2nd Rgt. Provisional Dragoons – 6 coys Dupré's Brigade: 1st Provisional Chasseurs – 5 coys 2nd Rgt. Provisional Chasseurs – 5 coys Additional: 2nd Rgt. Provisional Cuirassiers – 1 coy Under Vedel: Cassagne's Brigade: 6th Rgt Provisional Dragoons – 4 coys And: 2nd Rgt. Provisional Cuirassiers – presumably the remaining 4 coys Don't have the breakdown of 1st and 2nd Provisional Dragoons (pertinent footnotes are missing on the web-page) 6th Provisional Dragoons stated by the author as "Made up of reserves of the 4th Dragoon regiments" |
15th Hussar | 06 Oct 2015 9:35 a.m. PST |
Wow, this is odd. The usual questions revolve around what was the Spanish OB during the Bailen campaign. |
Westerner | 06 Oct 2015 10:28 a.m. PST |
A Total war post gives the composition of the 1st and 2nd Provisional Dragoons in January 1808 as follows, though there is no reference given: 1st Provisional Dragoon Regiment (1 company from 11th, 13th, 14th, 18th, 19th & 22nd Dragoon Regiments) 2nd Provisional Dragoon Regiment (1 company from 8th, 12th, 20th, 21st, 25th & 26th Dragoons) Potentially, there is a lot of French cavalry. Essentially, I'm all dragooned out; it would have been so nice to have some Carabiniers in bearskins instead! X-Ref the various and based on the article stating that the 2nd Provisional Cuirassier Regt. surrendered, the likely Cavalry Orbat for Bailen is now: Privé's Brigade: 1st Provisional Dragoon Regiment (363 sabres) 11th Dragoon Regiment (1 coy) 13th Dragoon Regiment (1 coy) 13th Dragoon Regiment (1 coy) 18th Dragoon Regiment (1 coy) 19th Dragoon Regiment (1 coy) 22nd Dragoon Regiment (1 coy) 2nd Provisional Dragoon Regiment (529 sabres): 8th Dragoon Regiment (1 coy) 12th Dragoon Regiment (1 coy) 20th Dragoon Regiment (1 coy) 21st Dragoon Regiment (1 coy) 25th Dragoon Regiment (1 coy) 26th Dragoon Regiment (1 coy) Dupré's Brigade: 1st Provisional Chasseur Regiment (476 sabres): lst Chasseur a Cheval Regiment (l coy) 2nd Chasseur a Cheval Regiment (l coy) 5th Chasseur a Cheval Regiment (l coy) 7th Chasseur a Cheval Regiment (l coy) llth Chasseur a Cheval Regiment (l coy) 2nd Rgt. Provisional Chasseur Regiment (473 sabres): l2th Chasseur a Cheval Regiment (l coy) l3th Chasseur a Cheval Regiment (l coy) l6th Chasseur a Cheval Regiment (l coy) 20th Chasseur a Cheval Regiment (l coy) 2lst Chasseur a Cheval Regiment (l coy) Boussard's Brigade: 6th Provisional Dragoon Regiment (447 sabres): 4 coys) Attached: 2nd Provisional Cuirassier Regiment (500 sabres (?)): 5th Cuirassier Regiment (l coy) 9th Cuirassier Regiment (l coy) l0th Cuirassier Regiment (l coy) llth Cuirassier Regiment (l coy) l2th Cuirassier Regiment (l coy) If anyone can improve on that list, I'd be greatly obliged! |
Prince of Essling | 06 Oct 2015 1:16 p.m. PST |
To help flesh out some of the info, from "Base de datos sobre las Unidas Militares en la Guerra de la Independencia Espanola" by J J Sanudo: 2nd Provisional Cuirassier Regiment: 5th Cuirassier Regiment (l coy) 110 men 9th Cuirassier Regiment (l coy) 120 men l0th Cuirassier Regiment (l coy) 122 men llth Cuirassier Regiment (l coy) 123 men l2th Cuirassier Regiment (l coy) 128 men strengths on original formation, January strength was 681 men (719 horses); declining to 603-650 men. Start of July 734 men 678 horses falling to 500 men, so your number seems about right Unfortunately the Carabiniers were in the 1st Provisional Cuirassier Regiment, which was formed into the 13th Cuirassiers. 1st Provisional Dragoons – your second 13th entry should read 14th. Unfortunately there is no breakdown of the squadrons that were used to form the 6th Provisional Dragoons though there is mention of 4th squadron 10th regiment. For information: 3rd Provisional Dragoons formed with the 4th squadrons (4th & 5th Dragoons). There is no breakdown of 4th regiment. 5th Provisional Dragoons formed from 4th squadrons (9th & 15th Dragoons). |
Westerner | 08 Oct 2015 3:50 a.m. PST |
Thanks, Prince of Essling. So, with the cavalry sorted, my attempt at the French OOB is as follows: French Order of Battle – Bailen, 19th July 1808 2nd Corps d' Observation de la Gironde Commanding General: General de division Dupont Chief of Staff: General de brigade Legendre lst Division: General de division Barbou lst Brigade: General de brigade Pannatier 2/lst Garde de Paris Infantry Regiment (480) 2/2nd Garde de Paris Infantry Regiment (480) 1 & 2/3rd Legion de Reserve (1,758) 2nd Brigade: General de brigade Chabert 1, 2 & 3/4th Legion de Reserve (2,481) 2/4th Swiss Line Infantry Regiment (612) 1 Battery Foot Artillery 2nd Division: General de division Vedel lst Brigade: General de brigade Poinsot 1, 2 & 3/5th Legion de Reserve (2,225) 1/3rd Swiss Line Infantry Regiment (844) 2nd Brigade: General de brigade Cassagne 1, 2 & 3/lst Legion de Reserve (2,241) Attached: Marines of the Imperial Guard (400) 1 Battery Foot Artillery Division Rouyer: General de division Rouyer lst Brigade: General de brigade Schramm 1 & 2 Swiss Infantry Regiment Reding (Spanish) (962) 1 & 2 Swiss Infantry Regiment Preux (Spanish) (699) 1 Battery Foot Artillery Cavalry Division: General de division Frescia 1st Brigade: General de brigade Privé 1st Provisional Dragoon Regiment (363) 11th Dragoon Regiment (1 coy) 13th Dragoon Regiment (1 coy) 14th Dragoon Regiment (1 coy) 18th Dragoon Regiment (1 coy) 19th Dragoon Regiment (1 coy) 22nd Dragoon Regiment (1 coy) 2nd Provisional Dragoon Regiment (529) 8th Dragoon Regiment (1 coy) 12th Dragoon Regiment (1 coy) 20th Dragoon Regiment (1 coy) 21st Dragoon Regiment (1 coy) 25th Dragoon Regiment (1 coy) 26th Dragoon Regiment (1 coy) 2nd Brigade: General de brigade Dupré 1st Provisional Chasseur Regiment (476) 1st Chasseur ŕ Cheval Regiment (1 coy) 2nd Chasseur ŕ Cheval Regiment (1 coy) 5th Chasseur ŕ Cheval Regiment (1 coy) 7th Chasseur ŕ Cheval Regiment (1 coy) 11th Chasseur ŕ Cheval Regiment (1 coy) 2nd Provisional Chasseur Regiment (473) 12th Chasseur ŕ Cheval Regiment (1 coy) 13th Chasseur ŕ Cheval Regiment (1 coy) 16th Chasseur ŕ Cheval Regiment (1 coy) 20th Chasseur ŕ Cheval Regiment (1 coy) 21st Chasseur ŕ Cheval Regiment (1 coy) Brigade Boussard 6th Provisional Dragoon Regiment (447) 4 coys) – 4/10th Dragoons (2 coys?) Attached: 2nd Provisional Cuirassier Regiment (500) 5th Cuirassier Regiment (1 coy) 9th Cuirassier Regiment (1 coy) 10th Cuirassier Regiment (1 coy) 11th Cuirassier Regiment (1 coy) 12th Cuirassier Regiment (1 coy) 1 Battery Horse Artillery Reserve: Engineer Company (100) Gendarmes of the Imperial Guard (40) 1 Battery Foot Artillery |
Prince of Essling | 08 Oct 2015 1:42 p.m. PST |
Extracts from RESEARCHING & DRAGONA on the Miniaturias Militares by Alfons Canovas French:
Spanish:
Map:
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