LORDGHEE | 22 Sep 2015 3:15 p.m. PST |
I know that over years that missle fuel will become unreliable. But I never considered that just carring the missle around on the aircraft could wear it out. Dose anyone know how many sorties it takes to wear out a missle just carriing it around? Thanks Lord Ghee more information on my Alantis project. |
cwlinsj | 22 Sep 2015 3:35 p.m. PST |
I think the term is called pylon life and it varies greatly depending on type and cost of missile. Besides fuels and warhead, missiles also contain batteries, electronics and coolants/refrigerants to keep the systems operative during exposure to extreme operational temperatures, these are all active during combat missions even if not fired. There is also physical wear & tear from riding on the wings of high-performance fighter craft. I don't know if the entire missile is trashed, but they probably need to be serviced & rebuilt after x-many hours. |
LORDGHEE | 22 Sep 2015 3:43 p.m. PST |
That is the Question? What is x hours. for 1st gen then later gens. If I can get this information then I can plot a life with each generation of missle. |
20thmaine | 22 Sep 2015 3:50 p.m. PST |
I think you'd have to dig around on manufacturers' web sites. Raytheon says here link that AMRAAM has a 20 year life :
But whether that's 20 years carefully stored in the box it came in ("mint in box !") or 20 years being shaken around on the side of a fast jet is quite another question I expect! |
LORDGHEE | 22 Sep 2015 4:11 p.m. PST |
Thanks 20th Marine, hope that my fellow memebers can come up with some numbers from their knowledge. 20 year last gen out the box. the equatons starts to fill. |
Mako11 | 22 Sep 2015 4:45 p.m. PST |
In Vietnam, just a few takeoffs and landings did it, but of course those were early types, and the region was very hot and humid too, which also plays havoc with electronics. From accounts I've read, it sounds like more missiles were duds than worked properly, during that conflict. Of course, to be fair, they were sometimes fired outside of very restrictive engagement launch parameters as well. |
Mako11 | 22 Sep 2015 6:15 p.m. PST |
I'm sure some know, but that info would be top secret, which of course means the Chinese and Russians have it too, because of their computer hacking, but you won't be able to get that info. |
LORDGHEE | 22 Sep 2015 7:32 p.m. PST |
Ah Mako11 I am sure given time the TMP member ship will come through. Use Peace Peace War War Environment Normal Harsh Normal Harsh Sidewinder info #=sorties 1st Gen 1956? b/c/d/e 12? 6? 6? 2-3 Sorties 2nd Gen 1970 g/h/j & p 3rd Gen 4th Gen 2003 x 5th Gen Amram 2000 60 (2-4 Year)
The table begins |
emckinney | 22 Sep 2015 8:07 p.m. PST |
There's no useful data on this, believe me. |
LORDGHEE | 22 Sep 2015 8:25 p.m. PST |
That table format failed! we have useful data just on 2 points more will come. Oh fuel in missiles 2nd gen lasted 7 years then ea ch year get a 10 percent failure rate additive. So 8th year 10% 9th year 20% just to fuel firing incorrectly. This means 5th generations missiles do not have this problem.
The search is on for data. |
mandt2 | 22 Sep 2015 9:58 p.m. PST |
Raytheon says here link that AMRAAM has a 20 year life : It's gotta be true. Why would they lie? |
Mako11 | 23 Sep 2015 2:57 a.m. PST |
To pay for that mansion, expensive European luxury car, or over the top vacation. |
Rabbit 3 | 23 Sep 2015 3:55 a.m. PST |
I'm sure some know, but that info would be top secret, which of course means the Chinese and Russians have it too, because of their computer hacking, but you won't be able to get that info. Not that it matters much as the real reason for the secrecy is to prevent the taxpayers and the servicemen who actually use the things from finding out how useless the hardware actually is! Must protect the reputations of the politicians and the defence contractors above all else. |
20thmaine | 23 Sep 2015 5:25 a.m. PST |
@mandt2 – well, exactly, which is why I caveated it with whether that's 20 years carefully stored in the box it came in ("mint in box !") or 20 years being shaken around on the side of a fast jet is quite another question I would expect Raytheon (or anyone else for that matter) to make claims which might be strictly true but maybe under very particular circumstances. Like saying "McDonalds (or KFC or chocolate bars or toffee popcorn or…) is a good thing to eat as part of a balanced diet" – maybe it's true, but what constitutes a "balanced diet" and who in the world actually eats it ? It's not that they are lying per se, but maybe the truth they are telling isn't far from what other people might call a falsehood. |
ScoutJock | 23 Sep 2015 6:26 a.m. PST |
Depends on whether they are made by VW… |
aegiscg47 | 23 Sep 2015 7:03 a.m. PST |
First, you don't carry around live missiles all the time. There are a wide variety of these classified as DATMs(dummy air training missiles), CATMs(captive air training missiles), PGWs(practice guided weapons), and NATMs(special air training missiles). Each one has their various uses in training for combat operations or for training the support personnel. Modern air to air missiles have come a long way and the 20 year quote from Raytheon is probably accurate. Most missiles sit in storage, then get hooked up for wartime operations. In the 60s and 70s the missile fail rate in combat was pretty high, but with a weapon being buffeted by 600mph turbulence, high g turns, etc., it's a wonder it works at all. The AIM-9X and AMRAAM are designed for this and so far seem to have done well in exercises at least. |
Kelly Armstrong | 23 Sep 2015 9:55 a.m. PST |
Motor propellants usually have a stabilizer or buffer ingredient to prolong the motor life. Necessary because the ingredients are slowly reacting over time and When the stabilizer or buffer concentration becomes too low, poor thrust performance (or even combustion) can occur if the motor is left in service or in storage too long. It's chemistry and temperature extremes from hot storage and hot operational environments will more rapidly degrade motor performance. |
Lion in the Stars | 23 Sep 2015 10:23 a.m. PST |
I'm not sure that it's hours of flight time that's the critical issue. I suspect that it's thermal cycling of the solid rocket motors. Get cracks in solid rockets and you have bombs. Very energetic bombs, at that. |
Kelly Armstrong | 23 Sep 2015 10:34 a.m. PST |
Yes, there are also plasticizers and rubber material in motors and they degrade and can lead to cracking. Another limit on motor life. |
ScoutJock | 23 Sep 2015 12:39 p.m. PST |
We used to see this with TOW and ATAS missiles. The failure rate was fairly high if the missile was past its "best by" date. Of course that was the reason we got to fire live missiles in training. |
Gaz0045 | 23 Sep 2015 1:10 p.m. PST |
Same with Rapier SAM's……past the shelf life and they were used for training on live fire exercises………..was it 5 years or so….? They didn't like being banged about in their boxes and crates either……. |
Mako11 | 24 Sep 2015 2:46 a.m. PST |
During Vietnam, a lot of it had to do with the high humidity and heat there, on primitive electronics, not to mention cat. takeoffs from carriers, high-G landings on deck, and maneuvers in flight. All of those have a tendency to significantly reduce electrical component reliability. Electronics today are far more reliable, and shock resistant. |
striker8 | 24 Sep 2015 2:25 p.m. PST |
The shelf life on munitions is only for things stored in their sealed shipping containers in a moderately controlled environment , once unsealed all bets are off since at that point there are just too many variables that can cause an issue with anything as complex as a missile. For something like an AAM I'd take a guess that the main service life issues would be due to vibration stress, batteries, umbilical connectors, and the control sensor covering. You can't protect anything completely from vibration if you want to be able to connect it to something else. You can only discharge/charge even the best batteries so many times before they fail. A sealed, tight, vibration resistant connector can only be plugged and unplugged so many times before something will fail. And the sensor coverings are going to take a beating from the elements and things like sand, ice, and bugs hitting it at high velocities just being mounted. I won't even bother listing the random things that can happen when the crews mount/dismount and move the missile around on the tarmac. Thinking about it more now I'm surprised any missile would be serviceable after more than 2 flights just from crew handling. |
LORDGHEE | 24 Sep 2015 6:16 p.m. PST |
Often the radarguided missile's vacuum tube technology failed. … Sparrows suffered a 66 percent failure rate in combat, and only 9 percent hit their targets. (Vietnam) 1991 Gulf War, where it scored many USAF air-to-air kills. Of 44 missiles fired, 30 (68.2%) hit their intended targets resulting in 24/26 (54.5%/59.1%) kills. 19 kills were obtained beyond visual range.[7] Could be later missles where use less and inmproved getting info |
LORDGHEE | 24 Sep 2015 9:09 p.m. PST |
Molniya/Vympel R-73 IR 0.4/15 3 105 290/18/51 "AA-11 Archer" 8 year shelf life, 40 hour life carried on pylon. Lacks a self destruct timer. From chart here link |
20thmaine | 25 Sep 2015 4:28 p.m. PST |
Thinking about it more now I'm surprised any missile would be serviceable after more than 2 flights just from crew handling. LOL! |
Lion in the Stars | 26 Sep 2015 7:59 a.m. PST |
Based on the AA11 stats, looks more like 4-5 flights before it's unserviceable. |