"Soviet 2S1 Tactics in Advanced Guard / Recon Units?" Topic

So, those lovely 1/100th 2S1 pics posted a little earlier are seducing me to consider fielding some as well.

I recall reading that the Soviets/WP allies might use them in the direct fire role, as well is in their more normal, indirect firing mode, especially if used in conjunction with their recon, and/or advanced guard units.

So, how close to the bleeding edge of the formations would these usually be found, when assigned to this role?

Direct fire seems to indicate quite close, I suspect, but I also imagine even for the advanced guard units, that might still be rather rare. Of course, for a major, break through assault, perhaps they are likely to provide direct support in some scenarios, though I think they'd be very vulnerable to enemy ATGMs if those were present.

I believe the DF role is for opportunity shoots or to assist in clearing light enemy forces from bypassed terrain.
Oh and the usual backstop role for when things go wrong.

In obstacle crossing they might provide DF, but they are very thin skinned

All Soviet artillery had the ability to direct fire and carried a couple AT rounds. They preferred not to use direct fire at short range. That is what tanks were for. A better description of their role is direct observed fire: far enough back to be out of range of most direct fire, but able to see and shoot at the target area, providing suppressive fire more than shooting at point targets.

A lot of NATO writings indicate that a battery could be as far forward as the lead company group operating as a Forward Security Element for either the Advanced Guard or a forward detachment.

I am basing my 15mm forces on that concept.

FM 200-1 and First Clash both cover the attachment of artillery forward

Like Cold Steel said. But when the "borsch" hits the fan, you do what you have to do … FA in direct fire mode has happened on occasions in WWII and Korea … and I'm sure elsewhere. Even if it may not be doctrine.

Thanks for all the replies.

Yes, that's what I thought I remembered reading, CAG 19, otherwise, I really can't see justifying the purchase.

Seems a bit crazy to deploy them that way, and yet without doing that, I can't see bothering to purchase them for the game table in anything other than perhaps 1/285th scale, and even then it is questionable.

Good for when NATO breaks through, or Airmobile deep strike, those 2S1 would get some action

Good for when NATO breaks through, or Airmobile deep strike, those 2S1 would get some action

Being former 101 member … hopefully CAS and/or Gunships would have silenced any 2S1s and any other OPFOR nearby. We don't do forced entry ops anymore … Lessons learned in WWII and of course SE Asia … Hot LZs/DZs/Beachheads are generally a thing of the past. And would only possibly happen by accident. And accidents do happen on rare occasions …

Mako 11:
See page 5-7 of this document and pages around it.
PDF link
Cheers and good gaming.
Rod Robertson.

Thanks for all the link, and page references Rod, and for all the other info, guys.

Looks like I will be needing that 2S1 unit after all.

While the LZ hopefully has been sanitised, reaction forces and targets may be what ever is nearby.

Just like breakthrough scenerios you can get a great fun mix of forces and parts/remenant

Not convinced at the moment if having them on table is right, but that depends on the game scale….Rapid Fire, CD etc it makes sense where a level of abstraction and ground scale mean it is feasible. Having them on the table at 1:1 scale unless it is a big table seems out of scale. As going into this in a larger scale is new a case of wait and I see. Maybe I have gotten carried away

The 1V12 series you could have coming forwards, and depending on the scenario even the 2S1s! At Bovington we had a Scud-B, although we spent a great deal of time explaining,

a. It would be accompanied by 30 odd BBvs
b. It would actually be by the Panzer 1, we were in the main entrance!

Tally Ho!

Nick,
Agree that having the COP seems reasonable for 1:1 games when ground scale means we are only looking at a couple of hundred metres square. But they are nice ;)

I was OPFOR (RECON) at Fort Irwin (NTC) for 5.5 years during the later part of the Gold War. We never had ours with either the Advanced Guard or Recon Units. And we went straight off of soviet doctrine. We had to. The only time you would see them was during a defense, behind the defense belt and that was still a number of Km's back behind them. Just saying.

While the LZ hopefully has been sanitised, reaction forces and targets may be what ever is nearby.

Of course, generally you want to land as close to the Objective/target as possible. Unlike the WWII doctrine of landing on it. Or what happened to the Brit Paras at Arnhem, who most landed 8 miles or so from the Objective. There is a "Goldilocks Zone" here again. However, today once the troops are on the ground. They can be supported much better not only by CAS. But Gunships, something no one had in WWII. A Reaction Force would have most likely/hopefully been attrited/destroyed by CAS/Gunships just before the lift birds go in … Keeping some sort of surprise, but once surprise is gone it is lots of firepower to keep killing the enemy. And make it very difficult to react.

A Note as to the AB operations.

A Rotation at NTC around 94-95.
Blue Force was:
1 Brig of 24th ID
1 Brig 40th ID CA NG
and 1 Brig of the 82nd AB.

OPFOR:
5 MRP's with all assets

A 14 day Rotation.

The 82nd was used as Strait Leg Inf up till the the mission of the rotation. Mostly up in the mountains guarding the passes.

The last mission of the rotation was a Bridge to Far type of scenario.

82nd did a night drop on Red Lake Pass Airfield and were to secure it, dig in, and wait till they were relieved.

We as the OPFOR Recon sat and watched them drop from the sky and called in Spot Reports. But could not engage them until one hour after the last one hit the ground. As per the R.O.E.
(Give them time to get un____ed, and put there MILES Gear on.)

After that we harassed them till we were relieved by 1 MRB at around sun rise

We preceded west and started to deal with the 24th ID.
This was made to easy as they loggered forward of the mountain passes. So we used Artillery, Rockets and Air Strikes on them for close to 12 hrs straight.

The next morning at there LD time (0600) they were at about 15% strength.
So we left a MRB to observe them and continue the earlier fire missions and the other two MRB's preceded to roll over the 82nd like a Cattle Stampede.

Oh the 40th ID was last on the list to die with a meeting battle at the Whale Gap. They were still running M60's and M113's. It was a good day to were the RED STARE.

If we would have been aloud to we could have put some major damage to there LZ.

Ouch ! Yeah, every time we deployed to the NTC we got our butts' kicked too. And I was with a Mech Bde. Light Infantry could be at some disadvantage in the desert.

a night drop on Red Lake Pass Airfield and were to secure it, dig in, and wait till they were relieved.

That would be the best they could do. And hope the relief force gets their very quickly. And hope they have a lot of CAS. Otherwise, the high ground/mountains would be their best location. But as I have said before, nothing is guaranteed …

What did you expect at the NTC? The best regiment in the Soviet army was stationed at Ft Irwin.

Back to the original post, get the models. All scenarios don't have to be the standard Soviet deliberate attack into the teeth of a prepared defense. A NATO counter attack into the gap between Soviet echelons would hit the lead regimental artillery group, or a by-passed unit tries to fight its way back to friendly lines. How about stay-behind forces hit supporting forces and run before relief intervenes?

What did you expect at the NTC? The best regiment in the Soviet army was stationed at Ft Irwin.

You got that right !