mwindsorfw | 18 Sep 2015 1:11 p.m. PST |
Having been hooked on Just Jack's great AARs about Team Whiskey, I have a company of 1980's U.S. and Soviet troops and vehicles arriving from GHQ on Monday. (It will arrive Monday because some idiots steal packages in my neighborhood, and every *$#@ time I order something it somehow decides to arrive at my office on Monday -- when the office is closed. But I digress.) I am having trouble finding colors and patterns for vehicles. There are some internet sites that talk about a NATO tricolor scheme (green, brown, and black), but it seems to show up a lot more on models and miniatures than in actual photos from Europe. Most of the photos either have NATO vehicles in a green and black pattern, or have everyone's vehicles in the same muddy green. Can anyone help with some suggestions? |
Garand | 18 Sep 2015 1:21 p.m. PST |
Depends entirely on the nationality. West German vehicles were originally in a specific OD shade called Gelboliv (see further down in the forum for a discussion). British vehicles indeed had a green & black camo scheme, and the last time I researched this I was suggested NATO green for the base by a former Chieftain tanker and model builder. French vehicles had their own tone of OD, before adopting their own tones for NATO tricolor. For US vehicles it was either straight OD, or some variation of the MERDC scheme. Winter Temperate pattern was the most common IIRC. Some US vehicles, like the M1 and M2/3 Bradleys were initially deployed to Europe in Forest Green rather than in a camo pattern. Damon. |
Mako11 | 18 Sep 2015 1:28 p.m. PST |
The NATO three-color scheme was instituted/implemented around the mid-1980s, so was rather late in the Cold War (good for Team Yankee, but not for the earlier periods. Appears the Soviets started adding multi-colored camo schemes to their vehicles at about the same time. Prior to that, Americans used the four-color MERDC scheme, from the mid-1970s (olive drab before that, from the 1950s/1940s). British used a single colored green scheme for most of the Cold War, and then switched over to the more commonly seen Bronze Green and Black (ends up looking more charcoal gray when faded). Not sure if they used Bronze Green for all of post-WWII – seems as if there is some debate about that for the very early, post-WWII period (olive drab from WWII being mentioned for Centurions). Not clear on the exact date of their changeover, but certainly by the early 1980s (some seem to indicate by the late 1970s [mid-1970s?]). I'd like clarification on the exact/approximate date for that, if anyone knows. I'm sure you do. West Germans switched from Gelboliv to the NATO three-color scheme in/around 1984. One source says Gelboliv before 1984, and the same one says 3-color after 1984 – perhaps 1984 was the official changeover date, and it took some time to implement. I have read that many soft-skins and service vehicles remained in the single color scheme to the end of the Cold War – 1989. Soviets/Warsaw Pact seem to use several shades of green – blue/green, and a more olive green, depending upon the nation, period, lighting conditions, and perhaps even the film used to take the pics, and your computer monitor settings. Would love some help with those colors, if people have suggestions. So, that gets us through the major nations. Would love info for the: Danes, Dutch, Belgians, Swedes, Norwegians, French, etc., too. |
HistoryPhD | 18 Sep 2015 1:43 p.m. PST |
Denmark used a green and black scheme, like the British, but the green the Danes used was a brighter hue. Try Vallejo reflective green. link The Dutch and Belgians (I believe the Norwegians as well) were straight old olive drab. Vallejo brown violet is a good match. |
Krieger | 18 Sep 2015 2:06 p.m. PST |
Regarding Swedes, I would recommend the following page: link I haven't tried it myself (and wont use humbrol for wargaming) but it should give you the right tones at least. (I would assume the colours are for 1/72 or larger scale models though, so if you are doing a smaller model you might want to go for a lighter shade.) |
RedLion281 | 18 Sep 2015 3:53 p.m. PST |
U.S. 1st Armored Division vehicles were in NATO 3 color by the time I arrived in the division in the fall of 1984. 10th Panzer Division combat vehicles were in NATO 3 color by the fall of 1985. Many of the support vehicles were in Gelboliv. The French vehicles I saw on exercise were in a lighter, "French" olive green – mainly AMX-30's and armored cars. |
McWong73 | 18 Sep 2015 4:29 p.m. PST |
What I use for non UK or US Nato link For the Soviets link |
Lion in the Stars | 18 Sep 2015 6:50 p.m. PST |
@Krieger: thanks for the link to the Swedes! In theory, NATO tricolor was supposed to be the same paint colors for everyone. In practice, not so much. Even if I was going to game Team Yankee, I'd stick with the older camo colors and patterns. Americans in MERDC, except any Abrams in solid green. And even in WW2, the Russians did have camo schemes. MIG Ammo has 2x 6-color sets of Russian camo colors, one for 1935-1945, one for modern Russians. |
Navy Fower Wun Seven | 18 Sep 2015 7:30 p.m. PST |
Malcolm Cleverly's book 'Armoured Farmer' states that 3RTR were painting their Chieftains Black and Green at Paderborn in 1979… |
Navy Fower Wun Seven | 18 Sep 2015 7:33 p.m. PST |
The Brits were using black and green from at least 1979 according to Malcolm Cleverly's book Armoured Farmer, about 3 RTR in Paderborn. One third Black, the rest green, ensuring corners and top edges were black. However he goes onto state that by the time the 3rd or 4th tank had gone through the tank wash, there were effectively being sprayed with diluted 'Sennelager Brown'… |
Martin Rapier | 18 Sep 2015 11:33 p.m. PST |
Honestly? The palette is basically green, particularly as you go earlier, with a hefty dollop of mud and dust. I have done some disruptive patterns on mine, but they are basically all green, of one sort or another. |
Mako11 | 19 Sep 2015 12:08 a.m. PST |
Some Chieftians, or Challengers I saw on Youtube appear to only have the black applied to the hull sides, and not on top. Not sure about the glacis, or turret rear, since they didn't show that angle. Is that usual? |
BattlerBritain | 19 Sep 2015 2:58 a.m. PST |
The black was applied to the tops of the vehicles as well as the sides. For Brits I use Humbrol British Army Deep Bronze Green 75 with black. For Modern NATO I use Humbrol 150 as the green, 142 or 29 as the brown and 33 black. For Soviet green I use Humbrol 114 (if you can find an old tin) or 102 is the nearest equivalent. For Soviet 3-tone I use the same green and add 187 sand and 33 black. This is all on GHQ 1/285th. After dry-brushing with light mud it lightens things up anyway. |
Dye4minis | 19 Sep 2015 3:13 a.m. PST |
I had noticed that the current woodlands camo is actually 4 colors. (So was MERDAC). A light and dark green, the color of the local soil and black for shadows. Tamiya offers all 4 colors with the term "NATO" in the description in their "XF" series. For me, their NATO Black is the only one I have yet to find that gives off that bit of "charchol grey" "look" (Sorry, can't spell this morning). Those 4 NATO colors is what I have been using since i found them about 6 years ago. |
mckrok | 19 Sep 2015 7:19 a.m. PST |
I saw Bundeswehr vehicles in the Grafenweohr Training Area in December of 1984 painted in both the NATO tri-color and gelboliv. Covered with Graf dust, they looked pink to me. It made me laugh at the time as I thought how seriously could you take someone driving around in a pink combat vehicle. The corps artillery battalion (8") I served in had just been painted in NATO tri color earlier in the summer, and almost all of the US vehicles I saw had already been pointed in the NATO tri-color. pjm |
Mako11 | 19 Sep 2015 12:48 p.m. PST |
Yea, MERDC should be four colors, though there are reports that at least some units, if not all of the US forces in Europe ran out of the sand color, so just applied the others instead. I think that was in the early 1980s. |
Rudysnelson | 19 Sep 2015 6:39 p.m. PST |
One of my jobs as the 1 Cav divisional safety officer was to inspect the divisional paint shop. I actual examined the templates used to pant. The vehicle for each vehicle as very specific. The scheme was a four color scheme. One set was for Europe which was our deployment plan but we also had a desert book and a autumn/winter book which different patterns. The second armor division used mainly desert scheme so in excercises at fort hood we could tell each other apart. |
CavScout8thCav | 21 Sep 2015 8:52 a.m. PST |
RedLion281 thumbs up! I was with Scout Plt 2/81 83-85.. |
Jemima Fawr | 21 Sep 2015 3:49 p.m. PST |
The Canadians used a unique pattern of puke-green, black and olive drab for most of their vehicles until the late 1980s, when they switched to the NATO Tri-colour scheme:
However, the Canadian Leopards used German 'Gelboliv' until they too switched to NATO Tri-Colour. The black maple leaf was also outlined in white on Leopards, but plain black on other AFVs:
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Jemima Fawr | 21 Sep 2015 3:58 p.m. PST |
Re British paint: 'Deep Bronze Green' was the 'mid-period' colour used after the move away from WW2 Olive Drab and before the switch to camouflage. The green used as camouflage from the 70s to the present is simply Olive Drab. A lot of soft-skins (particularly rear-echelon vehicles for cutting around camp, airfields, etc) were left plain olive drab and you could still find the odd ancient vehicle at the back of the MT yard in the late 1980s still in 1960s Bronze Green. I use Humbrol 75 as the base-coat, with Humbrol 159 as the main olive drab colour (exactly the same as my WW2 British). The camo is then matt black as the base colour with Humbrol 62 (panzer grey?) as the highlight. Finished off with a good weathering of Humbrol 72 (khaki drill).
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Jemima Fawr | 21 Sep 2015 4:00 p.m. PST |
Mako, Yes, there are quite a lot of photos of US vehicles on exercise showing MERDC minus the sand bit. |
rdg1125 | 21 Sep 2015 6:19 p.m. PST |
Has this site been mentioned before? Unfortunately, the photos aren't dated, but some of the vehicles date back to the Cold War Era, such as the AMX-30, the Leopard 1, etc. military-today.com |
Jemima Fawr | 22 Sep 2015 3:32 a.m. PST |
Re the NATO three-colour scheme: It might be my perception, but the green on German and especially French vehicles seems to be much brighter in shade than that used on US and Canadian vehicles (the camo also looks a lot brighter generally when it's polished up for the Bastille Day parade). |