Garde de Paris | 13 Sep 2015 9:19 a.m. PST |
Now I read that the loyalists were armed with the Brown Bess musket, and had bayonets. The rebels carried a variety of Pennsylvania long rifles, and no bayonets. The loyalists launched several bayonet charges downhill, from which the rebels ran! But they reformed when the loyalists were called back to the top of the position, and came on again. One source suggests that the loyalist position was only about 60 feet above the attackers, so the muskets must have been will into effective range, and could load probably 3-times faster. The only British soldier in the whole affair was Major Ferguson! Essentially an early US civil war! So here we have a numerically inferior, slow-loading rifle armed, no bayonet force attacking uphill against trained musketmen, and winning. Mollo's book only mentions the death of Ferguson. But the loyalist force was either killed, wounded and remainder captured. The loyalist wounded were left where they fell as the "mountain men" took the prisoners and marched away to avoid Cornwallis pursuit. Some of the prisoners escaped, but the bulk were taken over the mountain and impounded. In my limited reading of this era, this appears to be the only action of the way when rile-armed attackers defeated a larger force of musketmen. Really odd. Has anyone ever gamed this and been able to gain the same results? GdeP |
Leadjunky | 13 Sep 2015 10:14 a.m. PST |
Perhaps they were reluctant to abandon the high ground to defeat them in detail not knowing the actual strength of the enemy. |
Bill N | 13 Sep 2015 11:07 a.m. PST |
I would argue there were a number of actions in the south where a significant number of rifle armed attackers defeated a larger force. Kings Mountain was the largest and most famous. I've gamed KM several times. The only time the result has ever been different was when the British player tries to break out early in the action. Had Ferguson done this, he probably would have broken through. He would have condemned his force to fighting a running retreat until they reached Cornwallis, and I think that was what Ferguson was trying to avoid. Rifles were not the wonder weapon some traditions have claimed. Many riflemen were probably not good shots. However when you have individual riflemen operating under some concealment at a range of 30-50 yards firing at group targets of musketmen, those riflemen are likely to inflict far more casualties than the musketmen, even with the latter's quicker reloading time. |
maciek72 | 13 Sep 2015 12:29 p.m. PST |
They won because they had stamina to withdraw only under bayonet attack, not to skedaddle. Majority of bayonets attacks agains riflemen ended in riflemen running for their lives and not returning to battle. |
Der Alte Fritz | 13 Sep 2015 1:02 p.m. PST |
The attackers had the benefit of cover in their approach up the mountain plus they had surrounded the mountain and could attack from multiple direction – hence the Loyalists could not concentrate their forces in any one area. Somewhere I read that the crest of the mountain was devoid of cover so that the Loyalisty"stood out" and provided good targets for the Americans. |
Ashokmarine | 13 Sep 2015 2:54 p.m. PST |
I have been to KM and it's not really a mountain in my opinion, just a very large hill. It's also small so 1200 men condensed at the top would be easy targets. From what I understand it was a very mature forest with a large canopy and large trees. Big trees to hide behind.nothing like it looks now. |
Winston Smith | 13 Sep 2015 6:15 p.m. PST |
I am assembling forces to do King's Mountain. I intend to give the Patriots higher ratings. I have also read that when firing muskets downhill, it's easier to overshoot than when firing uphill. I also think the ratio of rifles in the Patriot army is highly overrated. Perhaps the Patriots were simply … better. |
LostPict | 13 Sep 2015 6:55 p.m. PST |
I have been there too. Here is a topo map link link Considering the loyalists (flatlanders) and rebels (mountain folk) different backgrounds and the moderate grades of the battlefield the over the mountain men would not be likely be particularly hampered by the terrain, but the loyalists may have been fatigued by running down and then back up the grade. Here's another account describing some of the challenges. link Once Ferguson was eliminated, morale may have also been a large factor. |
Dan Diamond | 14 Sep 2015 8:08 a.m. PST |
How were the loyalists set up for ammunition resupply? I mean it doesn't matter if you can fire three times as fast if you only have the same amount of ammo to carry you through the day. |
kallman | 14 Sep 2015 5:16 p.m. PST |
I will just re-post my comments from the first thread to answer the question. Here it is: There is conflicting information on the exact number of troops per side at the Battle of King's Mountain. However, all agree it was close to equal numbers and more or less about a thousand on each side. As vtsaogames stated it was not the most conventional of attacks. Then again few engagements of the American Revolution could be considered conventional as defined by warfare on the European continent. Ferguson believed he might be outnumbered and/or was being set upon by more than one force. I used to live in the area of Kings Mountain and have spent a good deal of time studying both the battle and the terrain. At the time period of the battle this area was primal forest with towering oaks and poplar. There was little ground cover except for a thick carpet of leaf detritus and the eve of the battle it had rained. The trees were in full color for the cool autumnal time of the year and the combination of damp, leaf canopy, and thick mulch would have made it difficult to hear much less detect/see men used to moving quietly and with stealth in this backwoods country, who would have been wearing buckskins or linen hunting shirts that would have camouflage. Also the Over the Mountain Men had good intelligence of where Ferguson had camped both from locals providing information and the fact Ferguson made no attempt to mask his camp fires. Kings Mountain literately juts out and is a readily noticeable promontory among what is otherwise mostly foot hills with the exception of Crowder's Mountain which is close by. Ferguson had only set up pickets who did not detect the Rebel forces until they had almost completed getting into position. Also Ferguson did not attempt to clear the area on the slopes of trees. The top of the Kings Mountain was a cleared area for grazing cattle. In the afternoon sun Ferguson's men were back-lit making excellent targets for men who were all sharp shooters and had rifled muskets. It was like shooting fish in a barrel. As vtsaogames also noted Ferguson attempted multiple downhill bayonet charges only to have the Over the Mountain Men fade back into the dense forest to regroup. As one charge would fail to make contact another side of Ferguson's position would come under heavy marksmen fire and using a whistle he would recall the units that had just charged downhill. Running uphill to meet the new threat the Frontiersmen who had just retired would then begin to fire and pick off the formed ranks marching or running back to the mountain top. Again those who made it back and were order to now charge down the other side got the same treatment. Imaging wearing all that woolen kit and carrying a heavy Brown Bess plus your lead shot on a warm autumnal day and never being able to come to blows with your foe. Keep in mind also that Ferguson did not have an entire force of British regulars. No, he had about two hundred men who were considered Queens Guards who were loyalist who would have been well trained and drilled. The majority of his force were loyalist militia mostly of landed gentry or tradesmen who while having received basic training and drill were not even on a par with the Over the Mountain Men for stamina and skill with their weapons. Ferguson in a set piece open field engagement would most likely have sent the Over the Mountain Men packing. Ferguson also would have been correct to make his stand where he did taking advantage of the high ground and daring his enemy to march up and match bayonets with him. But this was a case were the enemy was not going to play by Ferguson's or conventional rules. The battle lasted a little over an hour with Ferguson attempting a break out which is where he lost his life as every one of the Over the Mountain Men was looking for that Checkered shirt and once they saw it they demonstrated their lethal skill with their rifle muskets. I forget how many wounds Ferguson was said to have. |
kallman | 14 Sep 2015 5:47 p.m. PST |
I will add that Ferguson made the classic mistake of underestimating his enemy. We know from his letters and comments from other officers who knew him that he had almost a total disdain for the rebel forces and in particular the frontiersmen who against The Crown's orders had pressed deep into Indian lands that had been promised were theirs by British authority. And no it is not an overestimation that the Over the Mountain Men all carried rifled muskets. The rifle musket was the main arm of the frontiersman. It was how he both provided meat for his family and protected his home against the natives. Also all of these men would have had some experience fighting Indians in particular the Cherokee and Creek. In addition to his powder horn and rifle musket he would have carried a tomahawk and/or a heavy knife. These were men used to living rough. Now there were some Continental regulars from Virginia among Colonel Campbell's forces but they did not make up the mainstay of the force that attacked Ferguson. And someone stated this was more of civil war and they would be correct. Many of the participants on both sides knew each other in one form or fashion and there was terrible enmity that also lent fury to the Over the Mountain Men's attack. After Ferguson was killed and his breakout routed back to the mountain top, Ferguson's second in command William DePester offered terms and attempted to surrender. Finally gaining the top the remnants of the late Major Ferguson's force (He was posthumously promoted to Colonel) had laid down their arms when two things happened, one was that one of the officers for the rebel's forces fell from his horse shot dead by a possible bit of friendly fire or perhaps a deliberate attempt by someone to settle a score on the Rebel side. However the shooting had the Over the Mountain Men seek immediate retribution and they began to fire into the surrendering ranks of the loyalist. Added to that a foraging party that Ferguson had sent out earlier returned and began to open fire not knowing the battle was lost. This too brought about additional reprisal against the already disarmed loyalist. DePester pleaded with Campbell to restore order but a terrible slaughter had already taken place. The hatred these frontiersmen felt for Ferguson lead to them desecrating his body in a horrible fashion, not only tearing off parts of his uniform and clothing until his corpse lay naked but urinating on the body as well. The forces camped for the evening with the loyalist wounded not receiving any succor from the victors. Temperatures dropped into the thirties and an early frost settled in. The next morning because Campbell and the other officers feared that Tarlton's forces might be near by began a brutal force march of their captors. Remember the Over the Mountain Men had all arrived Mounted and the loyalist were force to keep a brutal pace covering over fifty miles to Rutherforton. While in Rutherfordton a drum head court was held and a number of the loyalist leaders were hanged. Again DePester begged for clemency from Campbell and Campbell relented and the hangings ceased. It is not known how many of the loyalist forces died from the battle, exposure, the march or other complications. The end result was that Ferguson's force was for all purposes obliterated. |
Thomas Mante | 22 Sep 2015 12:20 p.m. PST |
Whilst the Provincials under Ferguson's command were sound troops the same could not be said to be true of the bulk of his force being composed of Loyalist militia. It seems to me that the Loyalist Militia usually came off worst in encounters with Patriot Militia in the south whereas the Provincials, in the best cases, were as reliable as regulars. Cornwallus' Inpsector of Provincials Lt Col Alexander Innes of the South Carolina Royalsists (Provincials) opined that the Loyalist militia were pretty poor viz. "Militia on their present plan will ever prove a useless, disorderly, destructive banditti". Patriot militia were on the whole somewhat better and tended to come out on top when the two met in numerous skirmish in the backwoods eg at Shallow Ford and Blue Savannah. For those who seek more information Lyman C Draper's monograph 'Kings Mountain and its heroes' campaign is available online at link 600 pages and a monster read but it does include many eyewitness reports Robert M Dunkerly has also collated and edited the eyewitness accounts in a more accessible formats (including a handful of loyalist accounts). link |