"Contemporary WWII Range Terms?" Topic

Well … today an M16 or even the old M14 had an Max Effective Range of 460m. Not because of the weapons but because of the open iron sights. Now Max Range was 2500m for the M16[5.56m] and for the M14[7.62] = 3750m. At those ranges the round would lose velocity and ground out. However, most fire fights occur at 250m. In either case again, has more to do with getting a clear shoot, etc. … The longest range target[an outline of a human] on the Rifle Range, ['78-'92] was 300m. Which was down right tiny, using open iron sights. Point Blank would be close enough to touch the enemy I'd believe. Close would probably @ 100m, and Long = anything over 300m. But I'm again on some of those ranges, like Close and Long, I'm just estimating. Also remember most pistol/SMG rounds may have a range of @ 50-100m. Most pistols would be lucky to hit anything over 50ft.

I dont know what the actual military definiton of "point blank" is, but it does seem to be a term that is freely used essentially to mean "so close that you can't hardly miss."

I do know that if you read up on how to site-in a hunting rifle you will see that "point blank" is the maximum range that your bullet will go before you need to start "holding high" to compensate for bullet drop. For example, if you site in a 30 '06 to hit two inches high at 100 yards, the bullet drop at 200 yards will bring you dead on to the bulls eye. Beyond 200 yards the bullet starts to drop below the bulls eye. Out to about 275 yards the drop is only about 3 to 4 inches below the bull. Which means that if you are aiming at an eight inch paper dinner plate you will always hit it by holding your aim on the bull as long as the target is at or under 275 yards. Beyond 275 yards you need to start holding high to hit the dinner plate. So that means that point blank range for a typical 30 '06 cartridge is 275 yards. 275 yards is a long shot, at least for me! That is why I think the term "point blank" in its everyday usage is kind of misleading.

Funny… reminds me of Joint Training at Ft. Dix on the way over to U-pick-a-stan.

There was a female Air Force Officer. I forget her name, but we called her 'blind Captain'. We were doing a training regimen where you basically walk a few steps and fire at a pop up target, walk a few more and fire at the next, etc. At a range of less than 10 feet, she missed the target silhouette altogether and shot up the frame on which the target was affixed. Blind Captain…. good memories!!!

I don't recall any specific names for ranges used in the field (my memory is from the late 50s but I don't think anything had changed since the war) if ranges were talk about it tended to be quoted in yards.

I do recall seeing effective and maximum used in weapons manuals but that's about it.

In general agreement with the posts above.

x42

The Bren manual says effective range is 600 yards (and that it is as effective at 600 yards as at 20). It doesn't specify a maximum range.

SLR Battlesights were set to 300 yards, the range at which the bullet was no longer going in a straight line. Presumably similar ballistics appplied to Lee Enfields, K98s etc, just a bit closer than for 7.62mm.

One 1942 exercise specified that the range at with rifle kills are guaranteed was 30 yards, so perhaps that is 'point blank'.

We used yards for everything in the Navy. No such thing as long, near, etc.
except when you were on lookout and reporting to the bridge.

Technically, from what I've read, "effective range" is supposed to be the distance at which you have a 50% chance of hitting the target with one shot.

Not sure all use the definition appropriately, but that is apparently the theoretical, official standard.

That applies to pistols, rifles, machine guns, tank cannons, etc..

a training regimen where you basically walk a few steps and fire at a pop up target, walk a few more and fire at the next, etc.

I remember that sort of pop-up range Lou. Was kind of fun ! But we didn't run it after '80 ?

The Bren manual says effective range is 600 yards (and that it is as effective at 600 yards as at 20). It doesn't specify a maximum range.

SLR Battlesights were to 300 yards, the range at which the bullet was no longer going in a straight line. Presumably similar ballistics applied to Lee Enfields, K98s etc, just a bit closer than for 7.62mm.

Max Effective Range is where it was expected you could hit the target. Like I said, the M16's Max Effective was about 460m, IIRC. But again on the rifle range the longest target was 300m. And you could hardly see it. Again Max range of the M16's 5.56mm round is about 2500m, then it loses velocity, etc. and grounds out. Of course an MG will have a longer Max Effective like as noted – 600m. If for no other reason than with all those rounds going down range you would hit something, and you may not being shooting at humans but trucks, aircraft, etc. … And at about 200 yards most AFVs look like just "blobs". That is why we have binos, etc. … However, it normally comes down to being able to see the target. A lot of places you may not has a clear LOS to 600m. Save for in places like the desert, etc, as we saw in Afghanistan recently. For example the M2 .50 call had a Max Range of 6800m. Of course mounted in an aircraft or shooting at an aircraft, that could come in handy … if you could see the target. So again, in a firefight most research agrees, 250m is where most of the shooting happens.

Now if you are talking about a tank battles, ranges would be much longer. As the main gun is a cannon with bigger round, etc. … For example in the 80s. The optics on a US M60 MBT had a 2500m range advantage over most USSR MBTs. Which would be critical in a tank fight.

Technically, from what I've read, "effective range" is supposed to be the distance at which you have a 50% chance of hitting the target with one shot.

Not sure all use the definition appropriately, but that is apparently the theoretical, official standard.

That is my understanding of the term as well. For example: "Effective range (50% Ph)."
TRADOC Bulletin 10, The Soviet Main Battle Tank: Capabilities and Limitations, page 32.

In today's British military, a rifleman is effective to 300m, a section to 600m. That's just the rifles, the GPMG is effective to about 800, tracer burns out at 1100. Other weapons are in the mix, like the sharp shooter rifle and Minimi, but the aforementioned figures have been around for a long time.

Just to add, we now train on the rifle down to 3m.

Just to add a bit more, those figures are the same for when we had 7.62 individual weapons (SLR) as opposed to the 5.56 we have now.

That's because the figures are more a result of the iron sights than the round going downrange, foxweasel.

Since the US military still trains on iron sights even though every grunt has optics, I suspect that those ranges won't change anytime soon.

I suspect the limits of the Mark 1 eyeball have much to do with this. Any targets which need to spotted with someone with binoculars are going to be "long" range. Wrt the Bren, the manual is very clear that 600 is effective range, not maximum. A 303 will carry 2000 yards if not further. The sorts ranges used for Vickers MG barrages and SMLE volley fire using barrage sights.

Close Combat, is seemingly around 25 yards, closer in dense terrain, which more seems to correspond to psychological fight or flight distances than physical weapon characteristics. The distance at which things get very decisive.

Technically, from what I've read, "effective range" is supposed to be the distance at which you have a 50% chance of hitting the target with one shot.

Yes, sorry I didn't make that clear in my posts … I'm old …

Just to add a bit more, those figures are the same for when we had 7.62 individual weapons (SLR) as opposed to the 5.56 we have now.

Yes, as I said, both the M16(5.56) and M14(7.62 NATO) have that same max effective range. Using standard open iron sights on the weapons …

I suspect the limits of the Mark 1 eyeball have much to do with this.

Yes, again that is why the human sized target on the qual ranges are so tiny at 300m … Some who have never been on a rifle range or familiar with small arms. Have a friend stand at 100m, then 200m, then finally at 300m … at 300m, as I said is down right tiny. With the Mk.1 eyeball …

Umm. This is all really fascinating, but the OP was asking about the terminology used, not the actual numerical ranges.

I was helping a guy with some direct fire tank rules and he wanted range bands. I suggested it was based on muzzle velocity / time of flight.

Example: gun with 800 mps mv:
TOF .5 seconds point blank 400m
TOF 1.0 seconds short 800m
TOF 1.5 seconds medium 1200m
TOF 2.0 seconds long 1600m
TOF 2.5 seconds very long 2000m
TOF 3.0 seconds extreme 2400m

This means all weapons are assigned proportionally. Use whatever terminology you want but breaking it down by .5 seconds TOF should work for any weapon.

Wolfhag

On Global Security.org:
Maximum effective range is the longest range at which a weapon has a 50-percent probability of hitting a target.

So I guess it depends on the size of the target and how well it cooperates.

link

Battlesight
As a general rule, tankers are taught to hit the target, and they don't much care where. A 76mm punching through the TC's cupola on a PzIV probably is going to be as significant an emotional event to the crew as the round going through the lower front hull. Only in particular cases did they aim at specific locations (such as the turret on Panther and not the front slope if the gun couldn't punch through it), the default is ‘centre mass'. As a result, the most basic way of applying superelevation to gain a hit is what's known today as a ‘battlesight' range. Hunters may know the concept as "Maximum Point Blank". This is the range that you aim at which the round will not arc so high as to fly over the target at any range at all, whilst still traveling as far as possible. On today's M1A1, that range is 1,200m.

In my game I allow battle sight ranging up to one second time of flight. Any targets over that range need to perform range finding and that takes a little longer. The M60 tank manual states a battle sight shot will take about 5 seconds and firing precision (range finding) takes 8 seconds. That means the tank with the higher velocity gun will most likely get the first shot off at ranges between 700 – 1200 meters. Below 700 and above 1200 they will generally spend the same amount of time to get the first shot off.

Wolfhag

Good intel Wolfhag !

So I guess it depends on the size of the target and how well it cooperates.

Yeah that 300m target rarely cooperated !

The previous posters have done a good job posting explanations.
There are more terms being used or could be used depending on the unit level.
Some concepts are not understood or used enough, ie forced on the gamer by rule mechanics. One of these is the difference at the skirmish level between spotting and sighting. A target can be spotted but not always able to be sighted for shooting at.
Another concept is the required use of firing range cards.
There are others such PPA on pre plotted locations.

Are you asking about the troops themselves, or doctrine? troops very rarely use the terms of doctrine, if ever. I have dealt with a few WWII vets a good number of Korea vets, and lots of Vietnam vets, as well as my onw gneeration in the army. And "in range" and "out of range" are abpout the only terms they use.

And by those we pretty much mean a reasonable chance to make them go away. Gamers will try any crazy chance because there is really no reason not to. really soldiers are much less likely to waste ammo, you just dont carry that much of it.

I have to agree with badger22. The other factor real soldiers need to concern themselves with is giving away your position. Opening fire on an enemy unit without a good chance of stopping him may result in a mortar barrage on top of your position in a very short period of time.

Wolfhag