"A reasonable mix of Soviet vehicles?" Topic

I'm still gathering up some 3mm troops and kit to fight out a WWIII Cold War goes hot in 1985. I want to field a regiment of armor and mechanized infantry from Category 1 forces that would have been in the USSR's first wave across the Inner-German border.

Would this be a reasonable mix of tanks and afvs?

Tank Division Regiment: T64B/BMP1
Tank Division Motorized: BTR60PB (would the BTR70 be more correct?)
Motorized Rifle Tanks: T62 (T55?)
Motorized Rifle Motorized: BTR60PB

I want to be able to field a full regiment of troops at once for 5 Core Brigade Commander. Their OPFOR would be a Team Yankee mix of M1IPs and M113s with some ITVs.

Anyway, am I right or am I off.

Instinct tells me the BTR70 for the MRR.

And for 85 I don't known if you'd find the M1-1P, but would defer to more knowledgeable heads here.

The IP is there because I'm following "Team Yankee" and John Hackett's "World War Three". I'm using history to fill in gaps, but I'm using T64s rather than T72, so it's sort of Team Yankee.

But Wikipedia seems to think that the M1IP is reasonable:

A total of 3,273 M1 Abrams were produced 1979–85 and first entered U.S. Army service in 1980. Production at the government-owned, GDLS-operated Lima Army Tank Plant in Lima, Ohio, was joined by vehicles built at the Detroit Arsenal Tank Plant in Warren, Michigan from 1982 to 1996.[2] The M1 was armed with the license-built version of the 105 mm Royal Ordnance L7 gun. An improved model called the M1IP was produced briefly in 1984 and contained small upgrades. The M1IP models were used in the Canadian Army Trophy NATO tank gunnery competition in 1985 and 1987.

Seems like a good list to me.

I think the BTR-60PBs would probably still be most prevalent, but some units could have the BTR-70s.

More likely T-62s than T-55s (unless you want to do W.P. allies – then go with the T-55s).

T-62s may be getting a bit long in the tooth if you are doing 1985, though I suspect some units still might have them then. When I was growing up, T-62s were billed as the major Soviet tank, replacing the T-54s/T-55s.

Little was known about, or discussed of the T-64s/T-72s/T-80s, which were just starting to really get produced, and released to the units.

Your mix is also very good for the late 1960s – 1970s as well.

Sorry, can't say about the M-1IP models, but suspect they might have been rare. Only 150 basic M-1s were available to the US Army in 1981/1982.

That's cool. It gives me an excuse to grab some M60s. I like the "dinosaur".

Another related question: Did the USAREUR ever use the M48? I seem to remember that during Vietnam the Army used the M48 in 'Nam but used the M60 in Europe. I seem to remember that the Germans used the M48, as did the Greeks and Turks. But I'm not sure about our own forces.

In 1984, the M60A1 was still the most common tank in the US Army. They would have been a small percentage of the USAREUR, but the REFORGER units would have had a high percentage. The T-55 was the most common tank in the WP, but the majority of Soviet units would have had the T-64 by 1985.

By 1985, tanks in motor rifles, be they in an infantry or armored unit, would most likely be older marks of the T-64. T-62s would still be around, but not many.

As Mako says, BTR-60s would be the majority, but quite a health minority of BTR-70s. Remember, the Soviets upgraded by battalion, so all one type of vehicle at that level.

Quite a large number of M48s (A3 and A5) were still in service in USAREUR in 1985. The third most numerous American tank after the M60A1 and A3.

Hmmm, perhaps I was wrong, if Wiki is right:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BTR-60

"In the 1980s, most of the BTR-60s in the Soviet army had been replaced by the BTR-70 and BTR-80; however, a large number was still operated by second-line and border troops. According to the data provided by the USSR during the signing of the CFE Treaty in 1990, there were 4,191 BTR-60s in service with the units stationed in the European part of the Soviet Union".

I tried looking up the number of APCs/IFVs the Russians declared under the CFE Treaty – Holdings, which is apparently listed in Annex 5, but without success. I thought that might give a clue as to the number/ratio of BTR-70s to BTR-60s and BTR-80s.

I also wasn't able to find any data on the number of BTR-70s the Russians produced. Perhaps someone has some data on that, in a book, or from another on-line source.

Yep, we had tons of M48s in Europe, from the 1950s.

Most, if not all would have been upgraded to 105mms by the 1980s (probably the late 1970s).

We and the West Germans used both the 90mm and 105mm variants.

Most of the M48s would have been relegated to national guard, and/or home guard units (Bundeswehr), by the 1980s.

I'm planning on pitting my M48s against Soviet and W.P. T-54s/T-55s, and T-10Ms, plus some of the other vehicles too. They're perfect for the 1950s – 1970s, and beyond.

The M60A1 will give you the widest range of years in service, and also in numbers deployed, so is a good bet for the US Army and Marines.

For 85, I'd go with BTR70 for Cat 1 and you could use BTR60's for lower readiness units.

I was able to dig up the following on the BTR-70, on-line:

thefullwiki.org/BTR-70

Not sure how accurate the figures are, but using the following rough numbers for the various Soviet/Warsaw Pact forces (don't know if those are total produced, or just still running), we can come up with a rough approximation of BTR-60s to BTR-70s available:

BTR-70s

Russia – approx. 2,000 units
Ukraine – approx. 1,000 units
East Germany – approx. 1,300 units

Which gives us anywhere between about 4,000 – 5,000 units, I suspect, for the BTR-70. I didn't include those for all the minor nations, just the big three.

BTR-60 production, per Wiki, is believed to be about 25,000 units.

Obviously, some of the above will be in other theaters (Siberia), or sold to other nations outside of Europe, but if we just use the basic numbers as a rough guide (yes, I know, it's wildly speculative – will be happy to see true figures if anyone has anything better – perhaps from one of the Jane's manuals), then about 1/6th of the 1st Tier, wheeled Motor Rifle units will have BTR-70s.

Perhaps double that (my best guess-timate), for front-line units (1st Tier), and you get maybe a 1/3 of the front-line, wheeled units equipped with BTR-70s. If you really want to be generous to them, say perhaps 50% of the units are BTR-70 equipped – perhaps your commander has some pull back in Moscow.

Note – obviously, this doesn't include BTR-80s, or BMPs either. I'll leave those for someone else to calculate, for now, by year, during the 1980s, as they got doled out to the various front-line units.

In the early to mid 80s in Europe, there were two BTRs for every one BMP

Tank Division Motor Rifle units are always BMP- no BTRs in a Tank Division except as command and support vehicles. Based on a bunch of discussions on the Yahoo TO&E list BTRs in East Germany were BTR-60 except for 2 regiments in BTR-70.

Except for the East Germans, where tank division motor rifles could be BTR-50s, depending on how early in the 80s you go.

I realized that my posting above may be a little misleading, and relates to all of the Soviet divisions back in the day.

According to some sources, almost all, if not all of the Soviet units, arrayed on the front lines in Europe, during the Cold War may be Category A units (or at least most would be). If that is true, you'd see a higher preponderance of BTR-70s, and perhaps even some BTR-80s, than I indicated above.

Here's a good overview for gamers, with lots of great reference info and links, if you choose to do more research:

link

The majority type withdrawn from Germany at the end of the Cold War was the BTR-60PB (by a very wide margin). The BTR-70 and especially 80 remained rare.

BTR-60PB far more prevalent than 70 and 80 which were rare. NVA had BTR-70. With GSFG no T-62 in the 80s. Will dig out some imagery of a MRR with T-80 and BTR-60PB,

Tally Ho!

I'd check on the T-64s, from what I remember at the time they proved too complex for the Russian crews and were withdrawn. Not that many being produced.

T-64 equipped 3 GSFG armies until the late 80s, 2, 3SA and 20. 1GTA and 8 down in the South were T-80.

Tally Ho!

The BTR-70 is basically a myth (or perhaps a very bad nightmare). It was the Soviets equivalent of Windows ME.

Plagued with very poor manufacturing output and a horrible design, the Soviet Army basically stuck with BTR-60s and tried to avoid the maintenance nightmare of the BTR-70. Finally, just not that many were actually produced. I think BTR-60 production continued during most of the period.

A quick note on T62… The Soviets officially withdrew them in 1984. They were still some around till late 1986. They were actually quite popular with command as they were easy to keep running and fairly expendable. The divisions evidently held on to them as long as possible. They were mainly housed in the end in the independent tank battalions…these functioned as training units for the regiments… yes, they would have fought.

Joe Collins

Yea, those T62s were THE tank in the news, back in the 1970s, and early 1980s, since the more modern stuff was a bit more rare.

Tgunner, I recommend you follow what Nick (in Somerset) says ref who was equipped with what in the 80s. We studied this stuff together at the time (when we thought they were a potential adversary) and he went on to teach eqpt recognition, ORBATs, and imagery analysis. If you are interested in portraying actual 1st echelon forces, ie. Soviet formations that were stationed in E Germany (GSFG/WGF), then its T-64s with BMP-1s or T-80s with BTR-60PBs.

I ran across a statement the other day, that said there were no BTR-70s fielded by the Soviets, in the GSFG.

Apparently, the East Germans had some BTR-70s though, but IIRC, it is only enough for 1 – 2 battalions.

No BTR-70s, not sure how many BTR-80s. Plenty of imagery of T-80 and BTR-60. A few BTR-70 we came across in 87, belonging to the NVA:

[URL=http://s820.photobucket.com/user/nickdives/media/BTR-70.jpg.html]

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Tally Ho!

In 83 all armor Bn's in Europe had been equipped with the M60A3 TTS and the border Cav units were just getting their M1's. I served 5 years in Germany between 83 and 89. With 1 year at Ft. Polk in the 5th ID which was equipped with M60A1's I went from kpot's, M16A2's and Kevlar vests and TOW2's in Germany to Steel pots, M16A1's plate insert vests and straight TOW's at Polk talk about a shock. I was trained on the TOW2 which has a digital MGS flip a button to test to the MGS set with dials and knobs.. I had a serious moment..