"What to do with the carthago hoplites in the victrix box?" Topic

So I'm useing hail caesar my units are 10 wide and then how ever deep is needed, so romans and other "civiliased" units are 2 deep. while phalangites are 4 deep as per the rules. but hoplites should be 3 deep I think from the rules.

But the victrix box comes with 24 of the hopltie carthagenians.

I can not make a 3 deep 10 wide unit of that.

I could make 8 wide 3 deep, but since fornatage is key in Hail caesar…

But then aperanrly the carthagenian "hoplties" didn't fight as hoplties per say.

So would 10 wide 2 deep work?

We don't really know how Carthaginian hoplites fought, in any detail, but it may have been no different from Greek hoplites. However, Putarch's description of the battle of Crimisus (c.341 BC) says that the Carthaginians had a force of 10,000 heavy infantry, and a little later that their front rank was of 400 men. That should mean that they were formed 25 ranks deep, deeper than most hoplite formations and as deep as a Theban attack column. So if you want to reflect this then yes, you probably do want three ranks at least in HC. Have you got any compatible Greek hoplite figures you could bury unnoticed in the middle of the formation, or any spare command figures?

But 341 bc is 120 years difference, in 341 bc the Romans to probebly fought as hoplites.

Apparently they used a shorter lighter spear the hoplites, more like Thorakitai in fighting style, only in linothorax and hoplone shield.

Can you buy an extra sprue of figs instead of a whole box?

But 341 bc is 120 years difference, in 341 bc the Romans to probebly fought as hoplites.

120 years difference from what? If you're looking at the Second Roman War, then there's a good chance that there weren't any Carthaginian hoplites left – there is a debate about whether they had re-armed before Hannibal left Spain. If you are accepting the old line that they still fought with hoplite shields at the start of the war, then there is no reason to think that their formation had changed from the previous century. Basically, our knowledge is so fragmentary that you can do what you like; but when they were hoplites, they probably fought as hoplites.

Apparently they used a shorter lighter spear the hoplites, more like Thorakitai in fighting style, only in linothorax and hoplone shield.

I think this is a bit of a myth, based originally on reports of short spears on sculpture (my fault, partly, in AMPW) that may be down to simple lack of space.

And I worry when I see comments like "more like Thorakitai in fighting style" when our whole knowledge of thorakitai amounts to about three sentences – we don't really know much about what their "fighting style" was.

So you are saying all miniature manifactures does it wrong?

As everybody that makes carthagenaians do both hoplties and the romefied ones.

Shorter spears for Carthhainians is probably a myth.
So is pikes (that was one of Peter Connolly's ideas)
But Cuirass, round shield and pointy helmet is fine.
So no need to throw out the figures – just give them Hoplite-length spears (8 to 9 feet).

I'm saying that we know a lot less for certain about Carthaginians than the miniature manufacturers think we do. And not all miniature manufacturers are necessarily representing just the Second Roman War, either: hoplites are fine, Romanised veterans are fine, it's just that they might not ever have appeared together. A progression from linen-armoured hoplite shields to mailed Roman veterans during the Second war _may_ be correct. It may not. What this really means is that, historically, you can do whatever you want in terms of formations, and no-one can really prove you wrong.

Hm, I guess I have to do 8 times 3 then.. Not sure how to do it, Victrix don't sell spures.

The only other option is to add javlinmen into the formation.

Well at TMP link is a TMP thread on spare 25/28mm hoplite shields: you could get a few of those and add them to some javelinmen, they'd probably look OK as poorly-equipped rear rankers?

You could try Warlord for sprues to make up the extra figures.

I suppose 'hoplites' could part of the 2nd line at Zama?

Thread raises an interesting point, be good if plastic manufacturers made spares sprues – shields, spears and so on. Hard of course when say Victrix makes weapons attached to hands/arms.

Back in the good old days when WRG was king, manufacturers used the books as source material – hence Sasanids with globe hats!

Garry