"Russo-German Legion hussars - Did they have lances??" Topic

Most information about the RGL hussars in 1815 states that they were without lances. But is this correct?

As the unit was raised in Russia and many – if not all – Russian hussar units were issued lances in 1812, is it not possible that the RGL hussars also received lances and were trained in using them?

This might explain why the hussars were retitled the 8th Ulans when they were taken into Prussian service and not made into a Prussian hussar regt.

Any thoughts?

As well, what is the source for the assertion that the RGL hussars were issued with British fur hussars busbies in 1815? Would it not be more "uniform" for them to simply receive Prussian shakoes like the other hussar regts in Prussian service? Or else to just retain their kiwers?

The 8th Ulans had not received lanced by June 1815. The reference to British hussar busbies seems strange. Althought I have not looked at whether they were merged with other Freikorps and hence these were wearing them
Stephen

Stephen, the information re the busbies comes from the Mont St Jean site. Useful site, but I am not sure I would stake my life on its accuracy on difficult points.

The only unit I was previously aware had busbies, was Von Hellwig's.

Re the lances, is it not possible that the RGL hussars might not have been issued w lances when raised in Russian service and simply retained them?

The trick with units like this, and while I have both regt. I don't know if lances are in the mix, is finding a figure of one kind and armed with another kind. The unit designation in 1815 never seemed to me with much thought of who went were other than they needed x amount of one unit and y of another.

On the other hand, if these units were actually made up of German volunteers, they may have kept to more western methods, since none of them would have been trained with the lance.

On the other hand, if these units were actually made up of German volunteers, they may have kept to more western methods, since none of them would have been trained with the lance.

But the Russians issued lances to hussar units and trained them to use it. At least this happened with their own hussars. So why not the RGL?

The Mont St Jean site also notes that the 7th Ulans (?) were partly made up of men from the Hellwig Streifkorps who had lance training, while the rest of the Korps were made hussars.

link

Some additional info:

TMP link

The Prussian 8. Ulanen-Regiment received lances as late as 1817 and carried none during the 1815 campaign. I haven't come accross any reference of hussars of the Russo-German Legion carrying lances. But of course that is no absolute proof that lances did not exist with them. Personally, I find it extremely improbable, though.

The first rank of the Hellwig Streifkorps hat received lances a few days before 17 May 1813, on the intiative of their commander. In May 1815, only a few men of the 7. Ulanen-Regiment had lances, the regiment was completely equipped with them as late as March 1816.

Danke schoen, Oliver. I guess I had an interesting theory which turned out not to be correct.

It looks as though the artwork of the 8th Ulans showing English fur caps is an attempt to portray the sealskin caps you refer to in the other thread you linked.

The artwork frequently shows the 7th Ulans as being partly composed of von Hellwig's cavalry in red dolmans w czapkas. I was coming home on the subway wondering how to convert those figures from AB figures. But I now have my doubts whether the czapkas were issued in time for the 1815 campaign, based on your comments in the other thread.

Might I ask your opinion on this point?

From the regimental histories of the 2. Schlesische Husaren and the 7. Ulanen, it seems in April 1815 the 7. Ulanen-Regiment had partly red dolmans (1st squadron, former Hellwig's cavalry), and partly green dolmans (2nd and 3rd squadron, former uniform of the 2. Schlesische Husaren, from which Hellwig's cavalry was originally formed). In September 1815, red and blue hussar dress (former 1813 Schill's cavalry) is mentioned. So the green may be an error for blue, but we must take the sources as they are.

Czapkas for the 7. Ulanen-Regiment were ready as late as March 1816.

Therefore, the soldier from the Elberfeld manuscript, figure 50c, "Uhlanen" from 5th November 1815, red dolman, Ulanen czapka, seems for me to be a man of the 4. Ulanen-Regiment. Under the same date, 5th November, there is the Elberfeld figure 50b, "Cavallerie", in the regulation uniform of the 4. Ulanen-Regiment. The 3rd squadron of the latter was formed from men of the Ostpreußisches National-Kavallerie-Regiment, which (very probably) had received red dolmans in early 1814. However, the white cords on the czako of Elberfeld 50c would be correct for the 7. Ulanen-Regiment, whereas those of the 4. Ulanen-Regiment had to be yellow. The cords on the czapka of Elberfeld 50b are completely irregular: light blue.

The info given about clothing in the regimental histories is often fragmentary, which leaves a lot of space for guesswork …

I didn't know the the ostpreussishes NKR received red dolmans! Wow!

Re the 7th Ulans, it sounds like the v Hellwig squadrons were equipped and dressed as hussars with fur English hats and no lances.

IIRC, the 4th Ulans didn't fight at Waterloo.

No, the 7. Ulanen-Regiment had a few lances during the 1815 campaign – probably those purchased in 1813 by Hellwig.

The 4. Ulanen-Regiment belonged to the reserve cavalry of Tauentzien's VI army corps. Still, it marched to France (only two squadrons strong, the third squadron joined them as late as mid-December in Trier), reached Paris on 20th August and was assigned to Zieten's I army corps on 24th August.

End of October the 4. Ulanen-Regiment was quartered north of Paris (Breteuil), in the beginning of November near the Dutch border (Péronne). The depot was north of Berlin (Bernau), later in Kyritz or Pyritz (on different pages, the regimental history gives both names alternatively – Kyritz in Brandenburg seems more probable than Pyritz in Pomerania). Elberfeld (near Düsseldorf) is on the way from Brandenburg to Northern France).

Hello folks!
I'll throw another crazy idea into the ring where the 7. Ulanen-Rgt. Czapka is concerned (although the idea about the 4.UR is quite convincing). The 7. was supposed to be raised partly from the Saxon Pr. Clemens Ulanen-Rgt, who in 1814 has switched from their Cheavuxleger-pattern uniform to a "Polish" style lancer dress with -you guessed it- blue czapkas. Maybe some of those found their way into the regiment, after the trouble with the Saxons? best regards, Aris Kosionidis