"Japan I forgive you" Topic

It seems every time this year we see the media dog piling on the Japanese about WW II. I think they have done enough apologizing and it's time to let that go. If I were them I would say sorry we started a war, we got our ass kicked for it and lost 2 million people-it won't happen again.

Sure they took Cotton Hill's shins, but we need to let that go.
Anyone disagree?

I agree though my father, a WWII vet, would never have. Whenever it was suggested he get a Toyota he would mutter about Bataan.

You forgive those who comited crimes… or you are talking about the actual japanese people who has nothing to do with WW2?

Amicalement
Armand

Considering 90% of the people responsible for WWII are dead I think the Japanese people should start getting a little slack. As far as the war crimes guys go, I think we pretty much got all of them taken care of, those that got off will pay for it eventually.

That's very decent of you…spend much time in Nanking?

Grossman – by your numbers we still have 10% to go.

Didn't the Japanese apologize and made some reparations already? I heard that as a society that values "saving face," it's a difficult matter for them. China certainly thinks they need more self recrimination.

Then again, there are also people who believe we owe them an apology for Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

I think Roger Gooddell owes Tom Brady an apology.

I guess what bothers me is the media just dragging it up every year as a sound bite.

They haven't apologised. Nor do they even recognise that they have anything to apologise for. And unlike the Germans they sweep the whole thing under the carpet. As far as current generations know they did nothing at all, and are the victims due to being bombed with atomic weapons.

And one should take a close look at how many Japanese were prosecuted after the war…not many. Was too inconvenient for the Americans.

Personally, I can't forgive them.

But one can agree to move on.

Well, I do agree, 70 years is probably enough, though I suspect for some in the world it will never be enough.

China's just using this to try to beat Japan down on the world's stage, in order to have some leverage over them, since the latter is far more powerful than they like.

I agree though. A shame more wasn't done against the Japanese war criminals back in the day, like it should have been.

Tom owes the American public and apology.

Tom Brady advised the Emperor to attack Pearl Harbor after he deflated his balls a little.

T Brady deflated his own or the Emperor's? Either way,it sounds painful.

Japan created Gojira, The Seven Samurai, Princess Monoke, and Haibane Renmei….

I have long since forgiven them.

I grew up in a neighborhood very like a small town as three generations of families had grown up there by that time. Our fathers and uncles had gone to WWII and hatred of the Japanese was a given. I was 35 before I came to consider them as human. Oddly enough it was through the device of "Tora! Tora! Tora!", a goodly part of which was devoted to the Japanese side of things. What an appalling thing race hatred is. The Nazis were hated as most of the men from my neighborhood fought them but it was a bit of a stretch to hate Germans as so many of our neighbors were of German heritage, my family included. Japan plays a mind game with itself concerning the truly horrific acts they carried out during the war. If they refuse to admit responsibility for their actions, let alone said acts ever took place, then all is contentment. But Truth has a way of making itself known and someday the Japanese need to face the Truth.

I mean, a random Japanese person is different from the culture and government of Japan, right?

If you hate individual Japanese people for ww2, in 2015, there's probably something wrong with you, but that doesn't mean we can't hold their government to the fire for the mass murders they still refuse to acknowledge.

When the war ended, and it was time to repatriate prisoners, they managed to scare up 65 Chinese POW's that had survived.

65.

You had better odds as a card-carrying jewish communist in a Nazi camp for crying out loud.

One thing to consider is that while most of the Japanese soldiers, generals and politicians involved in the war are dead and buried, millions of their victims are very much not. Maybe its best to allow that generation, the youngest of which would be in their late sixties, to pass on before declaring that all is forgiven and lets all move on.

How do you "forgive" someone who admits to doing nothing wrong?

If I beat several of your family members to death, steal their possessions, and then suffer terribly when the police assault my home, will you forgive me for being the victim of police brutality?

This is the Japanese position. The dominant view is that WW2 was a war among imperialist powers, and they happened to lose, and war is a bad thing, and they suffered terribly for being involved.

And they offer apologies in the form of "war is a bad thing, and bad things happen in war, and people do bad things in war, and we are sorry we were involved in the war". Not much more.

Feeling forgiving?

Not me.

Germany has taken a very open and active hand in investigating and documenting their participation in atrocities in WW2. Japan, on the other hand, has denied and obfuscated their own atrocities.

I traveled to Japan more than 30 times in the 1980s and 90s. I followed stories in the local newspapers about proposals to change the way WW2 history was taught in schools during that time. The "revisions" to history would have included mentions that the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was actually one of the causes of US entry into the war*, or that Japanese troops acted aggressively against civilian populations**. These revolutionary ideas were rejected.

One Japanese premier made statements indicating a genuine sense of atonement for Japanese behavior during the war during the time I was first traveling in Japan. If Japanese administrations did no more than re-affirm that position, things would be better. But no other Japanese premier has issued similar statements (one did "endorse" the sentiments in the prior statement) and most have stood some distance from the tone of atonement. Abe is clearly backing further away from any sense of atonement, and resetting the tone of Japan's view of WW2 history back towards "everyone was involved … we just happened to lose."

Feeling forgiving?

Not me.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

*Japanese textbooks generally describe the causes of the war as imperialism, with growing Japanese imperialist interests coming into conflict with Britain's, France's, Holland's and America's existing colonies in the South Pacific. Pearl Harbor is generally described as an escalation of a war that was already under way.

(And … I have seen very similar sentiments posted by young adult Japanese readers of various military history fora whenever this topic comes up. So it seems their approach to teaching WW2 history works … )

**No one even suggested any details on the scope or scale of Japanese "aggression" against Chinese civilians, at least not as I ever read. So no mention of the Rape of Nanking, or the four month long campaign in retaliation for the Doolittle raid that killed hundreds of thousands of Chinese civilians, or the Japanese army practice of "issuing" POWs to training units for bayonet practice, or to officer training units for sword practice, or to the Japanese army practice of rounding up and killing the adult and adolescent male relatives of rape victims, to avoid possible unrest or retaliation among the civilians in occupied areas.

I agree with McWong73. They continue to act as if they've done nothing wrong. It's as if we simply jumped up and attacked them for no reason at all. And then we unleashed two atom bombs on them just because.
I remember some years back I was with a National Guard unit in California. We were getting ready to go to South Korea as part of a large training exercise. A few soldiers of Japanese extraction wanted to go. They were turned down. When they asked why, they were told that, although we had no problem with them being part of our unit, the Koreans would have an entirely different view. They probably would not be coming back.
Sweeping history under the rug is extremely foolish. Before you can fix a thing, you have to know what's wrong…

They have apologized quite a bit. Most significant was the 1995 apology of Prime Minister Murayama: "During a certain period in the not-too-distant past, Japan, through its colonial rule and aggression, caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly those of Asia. In the hope that no such mistake will be made in the future, I regard, in a spirit of humanity, these irrefutable facts of history, and express here once again my feelings of deep remorse and state my heartfelt apology"

link

I am not saying the Japanese people fully accept their responsibility, or that there aren't revisionist elements in Japan. But they have apologized. And no other Axis power I can think of is expected to do so on an annual basis.

The fact is the Chinese and Korean governments use this issue to paper over internal dissent as much as anything else.

My father fought the Japanese in WWII as a Marine. Although he rarely talked about it, by the account of one of his wartime buddies, he "killed a lot of Japs and he was good at it." During the Korean War he was stationed in Japan and would talk about how much he loved the experience and interacting with the Japanese people during that time. His buddies, on the other hand, had nothing good to say about the Japanese. I agree, time to put it behind us.

really? does this have to do with toy soldiers? mean to say, this is how the gets started up on this site.

many times i wonder why topics like this get started here. is it just for LULZ? or is it to troll?

The feelings of anger and resentment towards the Japanese throughout Asia is genuine. All those governments do is stoke an existing fire that burns freely without any help.

It's one of the most complicated issues within Asia and the Pacific, which is unlikely to be resolved here.

They've apologized far more than the Chinese leaders and politicians ever have for the mistreatment of their own people.

Just look at Tianenmen Square for example.

Perhaps the Japanese haven't apologized as deeply, or sincerely as some would like for past transgressions (myself included), but it is 70 years later, so I'm not really sure what that would do coming from leaders that weren't even alive when WWII was happening.

It's just China's way of gaining leverage over Japan, without actually going to war.

Another ridiculous thread on this topic!

Japan has never apologized for their WWII atrocities. Other Asian countries besides China like Korea, Philippines etc. hold a lot of resentment against Japan's wartime actions especially the cruel Japanese colonial rule.

If Japan took responsibility like Germany, then China would not have the leverage Mako11 mentions. Not to mention Tiannamen Square has really nothing to do with what happened in WWII.

It is amazing to me that Japan continues to have so many apologists on TMP but you have those same people who feel it is "wrong" to wargame as Germans.

It is interesting that China should forget and "get over" WWII but Germany is constantly reminded about its crimes against the Jews.

I am really disappointed by this biased attitude by certain members on TMP and it is shameful how Japan is allowed to re-write history i.e blaming US, China, Britain for "forcing" Japan to go to war.

I blame the Soviets and the Cold War. Too many things got ignored or swept under the rug due to reality. Now it 76 years later since the start of the war. Time to move on, oh wait didn't Cold War II start with the invasion of the Ukraine?

I remember actually only West Germany actually doing all the things for Israel. Does that mean all the former East Germans owe an apology now? Isn't the current German leader from the East?

There are great many Poles also waiting on an apology from the Russians on several massacres of their elites in 1939. I know because I worked for someone who's grandfather was one of them.

It can go on and on.

Japan – you were NAUGHTY! (70+ years ago) and we DEMAND you flagellate yourself in perpetuity.

Japan still needs to own up as a society to what it did. They have not really done that. My wife's nephew married a Japanese woman. She's a lovely lady, but when she first came to this country she had never even heard of Pearl Harbor and was scarcely aware that World War II even happened.

Any Japanese under age 85, there is nothing for them to be sorry for it was their elders who did what they did.

As for any that are over 85, well, just as they showed no mercy to anyone, civilian or military, regardless of age (executed a 9 year old Australian as a spy on Rabaul), I will never forgive them.

Got what they deserved, well mostly, too many war criminals walked, but they are all old or gone.

I don't think anyone is demanding that the Post WWII generation of Japanese make some sort of act of contrition or make reparations. But if they don't know what happened to their country and HOW it happened, they aren't going to know how to keep it from happening again.

A friend of mine was at Bataan.

He had a lot more harsh words to say about MacArthur than he did about any of the Japanese he fought.

But Japan doesn't teach about what happened. The US? We admit we put most of the Japanese in the western US into concentration camps (I dislike the word due to the connotation with murder camps, but it is accurate otherwise).

A group of Japanese tourists were in Canada when a group of Canucks were picketing the Japanese Consulate, and when the Japanese got home they wrote a nasty letter demanding that the Canadian government "apologize for the lies". They were shocked to discover that their own newspapers had reported exactly what the Canucks were picketing.

Until *that* conversation happens, I don't believe that Japan as a nation has apologized.

Scott has the truth of it, kind of pointless to forgive someone when they're ignorant of what happened.

I don't forgive the Japanese, the Germans or the Russians. They made us come out of our shell and we had to do horrific things to stop them. Then we had to clean up their mess.

Don't even mention the Mid East to me.

The OP is free to forgive them. I don't.

Japan, I don't forgive you. And I don't trust you.

I don't have anything to forgive. What happened was three generations ago. When I was a child, I had a friend whose grandfather fought in the pacific. I also had a japanese friend. If their current government takes shady actions towards my government now, then there is an issue.

I hold specific governments and particular individuals responsible for their individual actions. The government of Japan of today is not the government of WWII. The vast majority of people in Japan today have no responsibility for what happened in WWII.

I do not believe in the collective guilt of a nation or society. Japan is a great nation and an important ally of the West. The people of Japan today have nothing to apologize for because they did not do anything wrong.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek
bunkermeister.blogspot.com

The concept of 'face' is a huge obstacle to learning and growth as an individual or culture. But it's not uniquely Japanese.

The US continued fighting in South East Asia mainly to save 'face'. And has never apologised at all. And it's not just a US issue.

Sure – Japan has a LOT to be sorry and apologise/make amends for. But it's hypocritical to make out that it is a purely Japanese phenomenon.

Also – for those who still don't get it – Japan not only does not apologise for WW2 they actively deny many of their crimes occurred.

Imagine if you will that Germany wrote the holocaust out of its official elementary and middle school textbooks – saying children don't need to learn about such things. What would the reaction be?

But how much do Americans learn about their country's crimes in South East Asia? How much do British school children learn about the nastier side of the Empire and colonialism. The French about their crimes? Zilch. The list is almost endless. Germany is almost unique in accepting the guilt and blame for WW2 but even they scapegoated the SS, Gestapo and 'evil' Nazis maintaining the noble Wehrmacht to be innocent. Reality is less clear cut.

Many Japanese are utterly horrified when confronted with the evidence withheld from them in Japan.

It's not our place to forgive them or not. That's the job of the surviving veterans and the descendants of those who died. But I'll bet there's not many in either of those groups that have a lot of love for the Japanese. Personally, I wouldn't care if Japan sank without trace. But then I say that about most countries.

Has anyone ever written a 'true account' for the Japanese market…?

I'd guess not – no market for it. No Japanese publisher would touch it. Even printing outside Japan and distributing in Japan would not get much distribution.

Horrific though the treatment of the various allied POWs was, it pales in comparison to that meted out to Chinese, Korean and other civilians. The 'Comfort Women' issue is particularly grave in my view.

As noted above, Japan has 'apologised' to a degree, but in somewhat vague terms, and to nothing like the extent of Germany. An unfair comparison perhaps, as in terms of coming to terms with its past, the German example is extreme, but that is the example Japan is expected to live up to.

"That's the job of the surviving veterans and the descendants of those who died."

Well there is a name on the POW memorial in Singapore which means I'm still waiting for a proper apology.

I'd say it's useless to be angry at people in Japan today.

Japan has a mentality problem when it comes to certain things. One is that they are very prideful and were able to avoid being forced into making a formal unequivocal apology. The best they got were general statements "A lot of bad things happened."

Perhaps the saddest part is that people in Japan are given a heavily skewed version of events and nothing is done to discourage them to think THEY were the real victims of WWII at the expense of countries like China and Korea.

My father was driven from his home, my uncle caught a load of shrapnel, and their friends and neighbors were slain. The Japanese say they were the victims. I want an apology.

I think many of you would take a different view if you had a family member imprisoned by the Japanese Military during the war and the cruel inhumane conditions that they were kept in . Sorry but I can't forget nor forgive but I have nothing against the ordinary Japanese people as I have nothing against the ordinary German people either.

Possibly the strongest worded post that I have ever posted on here. but I just hope most of you can understand my feelings .

It is also my main reason for not wargaming the Pacific campaign.

I am not responsible for the sins of my father..neither are the Japanese that we born after the war…It's time to let it go.

Some of these responses from people that still despise the Japanese people after 70 years are frankly quite disturbing. Japan has apologized frequently in the past for the war though usually it is seen as a matter of being forced to instead of a genuine apology. As someone who is a student of Japanese history and culture I freely admit that I have more than forgiven them for their past atrocities, but as someone who has studied asian history as a whole I must say that if Japan needs to apologize for its part in WW2 then China has more than a few apologies to make as well. Not only did China kill millions of its own people before and during what we refer to as WW2 today they killed 10's of millions after as well during Mao's regime. The Soviet Union and China killed close to as many people if not more than Germany and Japan and yet they were able to get away with it without an apology and aren't targeted by the media year after year. Let's face it Japan is far from the only country that has forgotten its dark past.

Also its true Japan hasn't taught an accurate version of its history during the 1930's and 40's. However growing up in America I can tell you the history taught, at least in my school, didn't exactly accurately portray US history. We briefly glossed over the treatment of the Native Americans so we could spend more time on the revolution, we watched Roots without context but never as a class really discussed the African slave trade, and we never even mentioned the Spanish-American war let alone the treatment of the Philippines so white washing of history is not a uniquely Japanese trait either.

By definition one person cannot forgive another for what was done to a third party. Saying I forgive Japan for WW2 is meaningless since I was never harmed by the Japanese personally or through a family connection.

Can I forgive Germany for mass murder of Jews, communists, homosexuals etc.? Of course not.

link

The above link covers the treaty that normalized relations and compensated Korea for crimes against Koreans. Part of the blame lies with the corrupt Korean government that used the money for investment and short changed the victims. But I contend that the Japanese side knew that would or could happen and so were complicit. Even if the full $800 USDm had been used to compensate victims directly it would not have amounted to very much per capita.

But as Highland Samurai says – Japan is far from alone in this.

This discussion has caused me to ponder my own situation, albeit Euro-based.

My family comes from what is modernly known as the Poland/East Germany area of Europe. It all depends what you want to call it depending on who conquered it at that time.

My descendants have been trodden on for centuries by more countries than I can name, including some that no longer exist.

I can guarantee that not all of them have apologized about what they did and as far as I know none have paid us any repatriations for the family members they killed, property they destroyed, possessions that they stole, etc.

Should I be getting a list together of all of them and begin despising them?

Is there any expiration time to this or should I go back as many centuries as I can?