"Gaming help for a non-gamer" Topic

Greetings,

I am not a gamer, with no experience of the hobby. I have been advised to post here as I am looking for help in testing scenarios from a minor brigade action, celebrated in some circles but poorly documented, that took place during the winter campaign on the Waal during the French advance into the Netherlands 1794-95. Would any gamers in the London area or SE England be interested in helping me investigate how the action might have progressed.

What rule system is your scenario for?

Hi – I assume from your post that you have basic information such as an order of battle for each side and a plan of the battlefield and that you are simply looking for some wargamers using your information to play out the battle using their rules and figures and then feed back the progress and outcome of a wargame to you – is that broadly right?

If so, you have come to a good forum for such help, though depending on what is said here, you may also get some help by posting on the Napoleonic Discussion board (Link included below) as there are a lot of folk there with the kind of knowledge that you seek and the figures to do those battle.

LINK – TMP link

Thank you both.

Major, I'm not a gamer so I have no rule system to apply. That is why I need advice.

Norm, broadly speaking, yes.

I have come from the 18th century Discussion Board where I post from time to time. I should post my enquiry on Napoleonic DB as well since, of course, there is an overlap.

I'm not a gamer so I have no rule system to apply. That is why I need advice.

I would suggest it is rather difficult to design a scenario unless you know what rules it is intended for. The rules will determine ground scale, figure representation and so on.

What he said. You might also consider what size table you are thinking of and how many figures there should be per side. That would help determine what set of rules would do.

In the historical action, how many troops were engaged? Howe many battalions/squadrons, batteries, etc?

If there was about a brigade per side that will eliminate grand tactical rules and skirmish rules, for example.

That sounds like a bit of chicken and egg to the unininitiated.

The action involved a brigade of British infantry – 4 bns one of which, depleted in numbers, remained in the rear- and two squadrons of light dragoons. One battalion had one 'wing' occupying an outpost in a village one mile forward of the main position, where it had been posted on piquet, supported by the light dragoons. Each unit had a pair of guns attached as far as we know apart from the battalion in the rear.

Skirmish rules would be important because key to the action is the fighting withdrawal of the infantry piquet from the outpost, 'hard pressed; by cavalry.' The rapid advance of a large force of French light cavalry supported by infantry, threatening envelopment, forced the piquet to retreat. Also key to the narrative is the retreat of the light cavalry about which there was some controversy.

The most information we have concerns this critical phase of the action and is where my interest lies. Some of the data is contradictory.

Once the initial French cavalry attack was beaten off the battle developed into an exchange of fire between infantry of roughly equal numbers.

There is a question mark over the presence of French artillery involved – if any was involved at all. British casualites were very light. According to the British, the French losses were much higher.

The terrain was farmland (pasture and orchards),intersected by hedgerows and waterways, together with the park woods of a country house, which lay between the forward hamlet and the large village where the brigade formed up to defend the river crossing carrying the high road to Utrecht and Amsterdam. The area of fighting was about a mile deep and half a mile wide. One larger watercourse probably presented a significant obstacle on the battlefield despite a fortnight of freezing temperatures far below zero which had left most open areas of open water frozen solid. There would have been snow and ice on the ground. Exposure, malnutrition and disease had taken a heavy toll of both sides. Morale however was quite high in the forces engaged. Many French were said to be drunk.

It's a rich tale

Skirmish rules would be important

I can see this leading to no end of confusion. When a wargamer says "skirmish rules", what he usually means is "a set of rules for playing wargames in which 1 figure is 1 man". By that reckoning your scenario with 4 battalions would NOT be suitable for skirmish rules.

What I think you mean is "rules for skirmishing", that is, where the set of rules in use allows the player to detach one or more companies to act as skirmishers in front of the main line.

That sounds about right. If you say so!

Right. What I meant by skirmish rules is a set of rules where each figure equals 1 real soldier. Such rules generally have anywhere from a squad (Song of Drums and Shakos) up to a couple companies (Sharp Practice if you load the table with figures).

Grand tactical games often have the smallest unit on the table represent a brigade or a multi-battalion regiment.

That's my preferred level, where the entire battle of Shiloh is a moderately small game.

So what you want is a set of rules where each player commands a brigade – or possibly a division and use a small number of troops. Your smallest unit would be a battalion (possibly a wing), squadron or section of artillery.

We are getting more precise and have ruled out a number of rule sets.

Yes. That sounds right. 'Wings' and squadrons- and at two key moments the intervention of an individual company.

Reference to 'Game design' has come up on another board ( C18th scenarios; TMP link ) .

Is that what we are beginning to discuss?

Is that what we are beginning to discuss?

No. We are not trying to design a game, but help you in designing a scenario. Scenario design is not the same as game design.

That makes sense. Thanks

I used to work for SPI game testing board games. I have designed one published board game and tried to design several still-born miniatures rule sets. Designing a set of game rules is WAY more difficult than designing a scenario using already established rules. If you want to design rules too, postpone the date for your demo a year or two.

I'm in NYC and of no help for your final demo game, unless you want to fly me and my wife out for the game (just joking). You need to find someone near you to help out. They may have a set of rules they prefer which would mean your scenario should adhere to that system. In a complete rules vacuum, I'd suggest "Loose Files and American Scramble" link

These are fairly simple yet deep rules and they are free.
They are designed for the American Revolution but should do for the battle you are planning. If battalion columns were used in this battle you might need to add a rule for that. Skirmishers are covered and various size units can be used.

Each figure = 10 men, each gun model = 2 guns (a section) and will allow battalion guns to used easily.

Figures are not counted, rather bases of infantry or horse are so the figure scale can be fudged if available figures are not mounted 3 infantry/2 cavalry per stand.

I have used these rules in the past and they give a satisfactory game.

[q] Designing a set of game rules is WAY more difficult than designing a scenario using already established rules. If you want to design rules too, postpone the date for your demo a year or two.[/q]

Nooooh.

Thanks for the link to the Loose Files and American Scramble.' I shall check it later these evening, althugh I have to be honest, with no idea of how gaming works except in the sketchiest semse, I am hoping to ride on the experience and expertise of established gamers and, in good British fashion hire out contract troopsof other 'Princes' on contract.

In truth though, instead of figures I will be happy to operate with counters or coins although its not so vivid. I suppose that might be anathema

Think of wargaming as being an exercise in time and motion. Rules are based around how far can a group of men move in a specified length of time (a game turn), how effective are the weapons at various range bands, and the impact of combat on the units ability and willingness to continue in action. There are various modifiers applied and dice or some other random number generator are used to simulate a range of outcomes across the designers expected range of outcomes. Oh and they should be fun.

I strongly suggest that you find a local club and go along to see how it is done. That should help with scenario design as you will get a feel for game size, number of figures to aim for etc.

Yes, I was able to grasp that from the 'Loose Files' rules as far as I understood theem. However there were – are- clearly some basic terms that I need to understand and that will prbably best be done on the flat of table, rather than the flat of a page.

Another idea: post the scenario info (order of battle, time frame, map, etc.) online and have folks try their hand at it in various places. Ask them to post the results. Hopefully you'll get a game near you but you might also get other games in various places. I might try one in NYC.

I was wondering about that. I have found a club quite close to me here who might be able to explain the basic procedures for the pricec of a pint or two and -well, who knows?

I'd best draw up something for their benefit anyway. I could then post that elsewhere as well.I have to say, though, posts on other specific TMP forums have not elictted much of a response, apart from some friendly encouragement on C18th Discussion to my initial post which brought me here.

So, I appreciate your support in this. It may be down to you in NYC after all! Funny, for all the hours I have spent studying the battle of Long Island etc in 1776, I have never envisaged wargames being played in NYC.

I shall shortly be disappearing for a few days to a remote place where the internet does not shine. That might afford me the opportunity to sit down and get my sh@t together.

Then I shall report back.

I have never envisaged wargames being played in NYC.

Born and raised here, been playing wargames since JFK was president. Plenty of others do too.

Stuff gamers will want to know: map, strength of each battalion in men/guns, brigade commanders and ratings – who is sharp, who is not. How long did the battle last, any particular details like weather if it mattered, one side low on ammo, supplies, etc.

You may want to post the scenario in a new thread, since this stuff slides off the front page in a few days. And once it does that, venerable folks like me have trouble finding it again.

Thanks. Copy that. Shouldn't be a problem. Off to to the late C20th tomorrow early.

Bahia de Cochinos. Now, there's scenario…