"Best modern armor rules???" Topic

What game systems have the most detailed, comprehensive and realistic rules for modern armored vehicle combat, from cold war to ultra modern?

Hmmmm, ultra-modern can be problematic, since there aren't too many new ones out there of late, with that level of detail.

Perhaps Challenger 2000 to meet your detailed and comprehensive requirements, and possibly realistic too, though from what I've read, the infantry rules are a bit boggy.

Produced around the end of the Cold War though, they are probably a bit dated in terms of post-Cold War data.

Some of the other, older rules are decent too, from what I've read. Still doing a little playtesting myself, and reading up on them, e.g. Challenger II (simpler infantry rules than the 2000 variant, by the same rules writer).

WRG 1950 – 1985 is available for free (IIRC), and is pretty decent, though less detailed than Challenger. There's also a WRG 1950 – 2000 set too, I believe.

Some of the new ones due out soon may be decent, e.g. SabreSquadron and I Ain't Been Nuked Mum (perhaps with a revised, more politically correct title, though I do like this one personally, since it is rather catchy).

Neither of the latter are supposed to be detailed, from what I've read. More like decent, quick-play, company level rules for the Cold War.

I hope that helps.

There is us, The best of them all due to my utterly unbiased opinion be one of the authors ;-).

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Being more serious we may be worth considering.

We do account for such things as battle management in a creible form. With the constant introduction of new equipment there is the ability to create the vehicle specifications from avaiable data not wait for new lists. Specialy as Alex from Shipyard has just done the 1/144 BMP T for release in a month or so after we get a few to play with.

You should be aware that it's one to one for vehicles and teams for the infantry. Also that its IGOUGO which is not ideal for inexperienced players with no understanding of the period or the tactics required. For obvious reasons there is no points system.

The game size is dependent on what you do. Tank only and you could fight a battalion level game with a bit of practise. However as in the real world infantry actions are much slower and have a high bit count. A full Infantry only company if they all "get out" ist about the limit for a good player.

Ultra modern and cold war are best done at 1/144 as in our opinion its the optimum vehicle to ground scale. It does work with 1/172 scale but you struugle to get long enough ranges. 15mm(1:100) well is a bit of a neither one way or the other scale, will work but its still a bit big for a vehicle vs vehicle scale. 6mm proably not really a great scale for MG, tanks have to move their turrets, fiddly at this scale and its hard (but not impossible) to mover the troops down a road even in a small village which you need to for MG. We have tried it and it does work but was not our scale of choice.

I would say Battlegroup by Ian Shaw and Ian Clark

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Good interview with Ian Clark here:
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Fist Full of Tows

For large battles you could try these.

PDF link

MBT by Avalon Hill, a boardgames but easily converted to miniatures.

CD-TOB using the Bob Mckenzie mods

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Bn – Bde games with model being 4-6 vehicles/guns

I will second fistful of tows.

cold war commander is a good set. just started plytesing themm.

I myself play Cold War Commander with some slight modifications the the attack helicopter rules.

Fistful of TOWs for multi-battalion games.
Modern Spearhead for multi-brigade games.

Another vote for Challenger.

My vote would be Force on Force for small battles and Cold War Commander if you are going for larger.

We use MBT/IDF for modern games.

Maybe the OP needs to define what they mean by "detailed" and "comprehensive" ?

Yes, it rather depends on the scope of the game. For 'detailed' and 'comprehensive' I could well recommend SPIs 'Next War', but it may not be what the OP had in mind.

Cold War Commander – NOT if you are looking for realistic.

I would also vote for Fist Full of Tows

How detailed do you want? Detailed enough to be unplayable? Plenty of those.

Detailed enough to give a reasonable facsimile of R/L results?

On the simple to complex scale, and at Company – Brigade – Division scale but still playable – 'Fistful of TOWS', Cold War Commander, WRG' – almost unplayable, 'Challenger'.

I typically will play at Battalion up to division at 1:1. How do these rules handle that scale?

Fistful is designed for quick play, so is fairly simple, but receives good reviews regularly.

I suspect it would be useful for Battalion level actions at 1:1.

That's the vehicle ratio I'm interested in as well, with one stand per squad for the troops (perhaps the occasional fireteam, as well, per stand, especially for smaller platoon to company level actions).

Battle Group evolved from Challenger. I would not recommend Challenger over Battle Group. But I would not want to play a super detailed modern set (I have played both of the mentioned sets) as most games get through only 2 or 3 turns without a resolution.

Fist Full of Tows is the way to go. It is a very intelligent playable set. Not a good set for infantry actions but great for armor.

JPK

Fistful of Tows is about the best.

I should mention a few things that constrain me. I work in 20mm/1/72 scale and for me, the purpose of the game is to have a venue by which these models and mini's in the scale I love, can "fight" each other.
So any discussion of switching scales is unfortunately a no-go. Any games that work for 20mm or can be adapted for 20mm are golden. I know this possibly limits the unit size of my games, but I have made peace with that. Or have made peace with a certain level of suspension of disbelief.

My meaning of detailed and comprehensive. …. I really like Force on Force for infantry (from what I've read so far)but the armor rules have one category for MBT main armament.

Such as the T-55 and the M1A2 have main guns in the same broad category. I get that the scope of those rules may not have had armor in mind but I do have armor in mind.

I want a set of rules that give a good representation of armored vehicle capabilities (Armor, speed, firepower).

Oh and yes … 1:1 scale

MG would do all that if its your style but even though its 1:1 the infantry operate in teams. At 1/172 even on a big board you are going to have tanks at a big disadvantage as they struggle to get out of RPG range. on an 8 by 6 board you are representing only 960m by 720m, that is definitely not tank country.

You have two options therefore. Lie and make tanks behave incorrectly (can't help there) or suffer the consequences (MG gets that bit right). If models are the thing at the expence of reality, the former is for you.

Hi all, thinking of getting Fisful of Tows, is it only available from the states? I'm in the UK

I think it's available on-line, as a PDF.

You can get the older variant for free, to give the system a test run, if desired.

Thanks Mako, might just do that

You're welcome.

They do seem pretty good for larger battles, since they're simpler than a lot of others.

Looking to do 1-1 in 12mm are they suitable for that?

I don't see why not.

They're intended for microarmor, but just double the movement rates, weapons ranges, etc.

the blitzkreig commander series, cold war commander and future war commander. interchangeable and all use the same system. plus supported by a forum if you have questions or ideas.

almost unplayable, 'Challenger'.

The various incarnations of Challenger suffer primarily from a problem that is very common amongst many wargame genres: over-scaling. It works fine if you have no more than a couple of companies to perhaps a battalion on the table. But it bogs down completely if you try to go any larger.

The problem of over-scaling is very pronounced in Modern armour games, where players persist in trying to field divisions using 1:1 scale rules. But it happens in other genres as well. You occasionally hear of people attempting to refight battles like Waterloo or Borodino using Empire or other rules of that scale for example!

Although I have not played it in over ten years, I actually like Challenger 2000 and think it gets a bad rap because players don't scale it right more than any real flaws in the game.

But what do I know? ;-)

Williamtheconker--

FFT3 is available at Wargames Vault

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I would like to suggest Sabre Squadron, just got these and with the few small play tests I've run so far, I'd say they cover all of the bases for 1950-2015.

Krieg ohne Hass have a post WW2 supplement.
They are scaled at Brigade/Regimental level so focus on Battle Groups and combined arms warfare.
Grid based play so no micro measurement, fast play and all tactical assets on table!
Lance.