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"Davy Crockett Use and Effectiveness?" Topic


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Mako1112 Aug 2015 5:14 p.m. PST

There were two variants of the Davy Crockett launchers, with ranges of 2 kms. (1.25 miles), and 4 kms. (2.5 miles) range. Both were tripod mounts that could be carried by a jeep, truck, or M-113 APC. Each vehicle/mount carried two warheads (more weren't needed, since it was anticipated that the ability for the troops to survive to fire more than twice per launcher was low). The lighter mount could be fired from the vehicle. The larger one required the tripod to be set up on the ground.

They fired a 50 pound warhead, with a 10 ton, or 20 ton charge (not kilotons, just tons). The output was selectable by turning a dial.

I was very surprised that the yield power of these was so low. However, that is a bit misleading, since apparently the radiation emitted by them was still quite powerful, but the blast compared to other, much larger nukes was rather anemic, as one would expect, given their small size. It appears that these were the forerunners to the "neutron warheads" proposed during the 1970s and 1980s.

Supposedly, the effectiveness of the 20 ton warhead was as follows, against unprotected troops:

150m radius = 10,000+ rads; instant death

200 – 250m radius (quotes differ on this) = 4,600 – 5,000 rads; immediately incapacitated (troops recover afterwards for a few hours – listed as walking dead)

300 – 333m radius = 1,000 rads; 100% lethal over time

400m = 500 – 600 rads; fatal dose 50% chance, over time; nausea and vomiting within hours

500m = 210 rads; likely to raise cancer risk and cause sterility; nausea and vomiting within 24 – 48 hours

out to 700m = some elevated radiation exposure

Tanks that were approximately 100m, or more from ground zero would be unharmed, but their crews would be killed by the radiation (not sure if that applies to shielded vehicles).

In one of the on-line articles I read, it states that firing a barrage of these would give NATO 48 hours in which to mobilize their troops to oppose an invasion. Not really sure what is meant by that. Presumably the first waves of Soviet/Warpac forces would have been destroyed by the barrage(s).

Perhaps though, they are insinuating that the ground over which these weapons were detonated would be contaminated, so would be "no-go zones" for enemy forces.

I'm not clear on that, but obviously do expect enemy troops would want to avoid these zones if possible. If not, they would want to transit through them quickly, avoiding the major hotspots of the barrage zone(s).

What I'm not clear on is how much, if any protection the Soviet tanks (T-55s and later) and APCs/IFVs that received radiation shielding could provide, if they were to be attacked by these directly, or if they needed to cross irradiated ground after the barrage (from what I've read, these were to be fired as low airbursts to limit radioactive fallout).

Any thoughts on that?

Complete immunity from the radiation if they stay buttoned up?

Reduction in the lethal and dangerous zones, due to their shielding, from direct attack, but perhaps still vulnerable to a direct hit, or near miss (less than the radii mentioned above), etc.?

I suspect that most Soviet vehicles that were sealed, and with radiation shielding could pass through all but perhaps the hottest zones (points directly below ground zero), in their vehicles safely, as long as they did so fairly quickly, especially if they were not caught in the initial nuclear barrage, but were in follow-through echelons.

Obviously, they'd need to conduct decontamination ops as soon as possible, afterwards.

I know the Soviets had radiation recon vehicles (specialized BRDM-2s) to permit the marking of safe paths through the radiation zones, and/or the periphery of the hot zones, in order to aid the advance of the follow-on units.

I also seem to recall that the Soviet seals/air filtering on their vehicles was less than optimal, so they might have to wear their MOPP gear even while crewing their tanks, and riding in their IFVs.

Does anyone know if that is true?

Perhaps that was recommended for NATO vehicle crews and riders too, in a chemical, bio, or nuclear attack was anticipated, or had occurred.

Would make sense, in case your hull was breached by a standard AP or HEAT round, and you survived or had to bail out, since the sealed environment would then be compromised.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP In the TMP Dawghouse12 Aug 2015 5:35 p.m. PST

I'm just glad it was never used operationally ! Nucs, Bugs & Gas, can be tricky things. Too easy to die without even trying if WMDs like those are employed. I was an Atomic Demolitions Mission Officer while in the 101. Was glad we never had that mission either …

Complete immunity from the radiation if they stay buttoned up?

Possible but still no guarantees, IMO ! Our MOPP suits were only "safe" for about 6-8 hrs once exposed to Chems, maybe Bugs (?). How effect against Rads ? I remember in FTXs, the S-3 having a chart for each units' exposure. When your unit reached too high a level, you could not longer operate in high Rad areas. Of course, what is going to happen to you years later is anyone's guess. If you actually lived thru/survived in an NBC/WMD war … Of course, once one side uses WMDs like
nerve agent, Anthrax, or nucs of any yield, all bets are off. Bottom line, IMO, weapons like the Davy Crockett, should/would have only been used as a very last resort. Like an alien invasion. huh?

15mm and 28mm Fanatik12 Aug 2015 5:51 p.m. PST

I just read about the DC tactical nuke launchers earlier this year in an issue of 'Modern Warfare' magazine. They're not particularly accurate but they don't have to be. They're low yield atomic warheads intended to break up overwhelming enemy formations as an option of last resort if friendly conventional forces in Western Europe are in danger of being overrun.

They were part of US Army doctrine at a time when the US enjoyed nuclear superiority (before the russkies narrowed the "missile gap"). Their relative short range and airburst pose a real danger of exposure and fallout to friend and foe alike, but I suppose when it's employed as a last resort such collateral damage is considered to be acceptable.

Winston Smith12 Aug 2015 6:02 p.m. PST

Good thing we never got to find out.

15mm and 28mm Fanatik12 Aug 2015 6:16 p.m. PST

The 1950's was truly the "nuclear age." We even had an air-to-air missile (more of an unguided rocket actually) for dealing with Russian long-range strategic nuclear bombers in the Air-2 "Genie" rocket: link

It's almost as if when a new weapon delivery system is developed the first question the generals ask is "can you put a nuke on it?"

Lion in the Stars12 Aug 2015 6:29 p.m. PST

The Genie was a pretty reasonable idea, really. Early AAMs had sucktastic guidance systems, and Bear bombers are huge.

if your guidance could only guarantee being within 100 yards of target at detonation, you needed a blast large enough to knock a large, strong airframe out of the sky at that range.

But all the baby nukes are a terrifying idea (says the guy who slept next to strategic nuke tubes).

skippy000112 Aug 2015 8:07 p.m. PST

"Like I said, strap four Davy's on a Ontos, park 'em on a hill at the Fulda Gap and kiss those Tango Nickel-Nickels good by. When you see the purty colors before yer retina's melt…that's Victory!"

"What?!! Me!?? Noooo! I'm needed back at the POMCUS site. Oh, the yacht on the trailer? That's eerrrr, confiscated Spetznatz gear…yeah, that's the ticket…"

Mako1112 Aug 2015 8:18 p.m. PST

Yea, I imagine if things went nuclear it'd be a bit hard to stop the return volleys, and escalation, especially under the old paradigm of "use them or lose them".

Found some basic info online, which is worth a read:

PDF link

Doesn't give a huge amount of data on different vehicles, but is a starting point for some of the early to mid-Cold War vehicles.

What is great is it provides info on direct radiation, and also background/fallout radiation, and how different types of vehicles protect their occupants against these.

Weasel12 Aug 2015 8:20 p.m. PST

Ostensibly part of the reason Soviet tanks were so low to the ground was to help prevent them from being flipped during a nuclear explosion, so that might be a consideration as well:

Even if the radiation doesn't kill the crew and the blast doesn't, it may still mess things up enough to incapacitate a vehicle.

Dirtside II applies a difficult morale check to both sides whenever the first nuke flies, since payback is bound to be coming soon.

skippy000112 Aug 2015 11:30 p.m. PST

WWII could mimic WWI with a tac nuke 'race to the sea' only Mo Man's Land is a continual NBC nightmare.

Mako1113 Aug 2015 1:28 p.m. PST

I didn't include it, but apparently there was also a demolition round as well, lumped in with the D.C. warhead article, which was set with a timer. The demo teams were instructed to stay within visual range of these charges until they detonated, in order to ensure their destruction.

Reports of its yield were not clear, since along with the 10/20 ton warheads, and the 250 ton (mentioned for the Genie rocket), there was also a 10 – 1,000 ton (1 KT dial a yield warhead) device mentioned too.

Not sure when the latter was available.

From what I read, they were to be used to hinder Soviet advancement, by blowing major bridges, causeways, etc., to slow the communists advance.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP In the TMP Dawghouse13 Aug 2015 3:37 p.m. PST

Oranjzicht – Well some of it is no longer classified, as far as I know. But I'll give you the short version. Myself, a plt or more of Infantry would be inserted into a key location. That required to be "shut down". We discussed a location like the Fulda Gap (?). Along with myself and SATCOM to the POTUS/JCS, and Plt of Grunts for security, etc. … There would be a small Combat Engineer team trained to emplace, initiate, etc. a small or medium size "back pack" nuc device. About the size of a basketball or a little larger. Plus or minus. And an SF team would be with use for a variety of reasons. The Nuc word be emplaced with every move relayed to the POTUS/JCS. The Timer set by the Combat Engineers. And we all would E&E to a pick up location … hopefully. This type of op would really be a last resort type of mission, IMO. And could be a one way trip ? I was required that as a 1LT to get a TS clearance. One of the few in the Bn. Which sounded high speed but I always was sent to pick classified items, etc. … for the BC, S3, etc. … I think that is all I can/want to say about this. God forbid, I wouldn't be surprise even today if this mission, higher tech hardware and the troops to do it are still being trained somewhere. It was an additional duty to my primary job at that time as Bn Air Ops Officer/S-3 Air.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP In the TMP Dawghouse14 Aug 2015 8:48 a.m. PST

Thank you for your interest … Glad to help ! grin

Lion in the Stars14 Aug 2015 8:59 a.m. PST

I was required that as a 1LT to get a TS clearance. One of the few in the Bn. Which sounded high speed but I always was sent to pick classified items, etc. … for the BC, S3, etc. …
Yeah, I was one of the guys to pack a high clearance on my sub. Fortunately, the comms guys and missile techs also had the clearance, otherwise I don't think I would have done anything but carry classified paperwork from point A to point B for my entire time in the Navy!

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP In the TMP Dawghouse14 Aug 2015 11:25 a.m. PST

Yes, I was sent a number of times as a runner/messenger because I had the clearance …

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP In the TMP Dawghouse15 Aug 2015 7:35 a.m. PST

Oh Oranjzicht – if you do game such a scenario … please don't get me killed !!!! huh? wink

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